Blue Sky: Argent Dawn Transfer

[Karak Stormsong]

I am vehemently against this.

This will be a massive inconvenience to all my characters, particulalrly as all barring karak are heavily invested in other guilds. Yes, I can use RealID, providing it actually -works- but this is adding a layer of inconvenience where there should not be any; not being able to talk to people in /redorc (etc.) when I'm levelling Naeemh, say, would kill the experience; and not bumping into random RP with defias characters kills Siyah's storyline altogether.

To make matters worse the overwhelming majority of guilds who have transfered have, as far as my personal experiences go, failed and collapsed within months. Not only does this corrupt the core of the guild between those wishing to stay or not, causing a terrible amount of needless drama, but it alienates a great number of casual players who may not want to make the move, or cannot afford to, or are unaware of the move yet still want to play; thus trashing the community atmosphere. It establishes a barrier -either in money or convenience- that turns away a great many people. I say this having seen and been a aprt of a -great many- dying guilds in the past. To make matters worse, neither the blades nor my characters have any history on AD apart from what seems to me as blatant conjecture. I cannot comment on what the AD community is like, as I have no experience of it so I see this as more a problem of sheer logistics.

What a move essentially amounts to is you forcing me to chose between two sets fo social groups, neither of which I want to abandon. Karak cannot funtion without the blades; Siyah would have to be reset entirely because a large amount of his development is coming from the Painted skulls and Pandaren (thus a lot of what he would say and hint at would be meaningless as there would be no way of ever 'solving the riddle' as it were), and Naeemh is so beloved by the dawnchasers it would be wrong to move her. Should a move actually happen it is most likely I would give on playing WoW altogether as the sheer guilt of leaving one side out would ruin the fun of the game.

At the risk of sounding shrill and alarmist, I cannot stress what a bad idea this would be.

[Sadok]

Thanks for the feedback, Karak. Just gonna address bits of it in bite-sized chunks.

To make matters worse the overwhelming majority of guilds who have transfered have, as far as my personal experiences go, failed and collapsed within months.

Of the guilds that have transferred from DB to AD, I think the track record isn't all that bad. Sin Belore are still around and kicking, Three Hammers are just as large -- it's maybe too soon to tell in terms of Forlorn Cartel's longevity, since they just arrived. The only guild I know of that fell off a cliff was Banner of the Bloodhoof, and that was due to the decision to make a whole new multiracial guild with new characters, instead of continue the existing guild and characters -- the lack of continuity caused people to lose interest and drift apart, because they had little prior investment in these new characters.

I'm not gonna deny that there are probably a great deal of other guilds that didn't survive the transition, but I'm personally confident in the ability of our officer-team, our active core, our ten-year reputation, our existing infrastructure (guild website, etc) and such when it comes to OotRB making it the distance.

Not only does this corrupt the core of the guild between those wishing to stay or not, causing a terrible amount of needless drama, but it alienates a great number of casual players who may not want to make the move, or cannot afford to, or are unaware of the move yet still want to play; thus trashing the community atmosphere.

This is a huge reason why, as stated in the OP, we won't be seriously entertaining this unless there's a significant majority in favor. And that's also why we've been trying to shepherd the less forum active people to have a look at the thread, because this is a decision that will be made not in days or even weeks, quite possibly.

I agree that money is a huge deal, which is why we're going to try and secure crowdfunding -- a solid third of those voting on the poll are willing to make the change, but can't afford the transfer cost. We should be able to make this a reality for them, along with saving whatever is left over as a fund for others who may return later.

Our unofficial motto, should this go ahead, is "no orc left behind." We'll do our damnedest to make it possible for every single member who wants to, to join us, if that is the decision we go with.

To make matters worse, neither the blades nor my characters have any history on AD apart from what seems to me as blatant conjecture. I cannot comment on what the AD community is like, as I have no experience of it so I see this as more a problem of sheer logistics.

Inevitably, the notion of rationalising a realm-change has to be done either with a hand-wave, given the setting of WoW is significantly larger and more populated than what is represented on DB, or with a tip of the hat to different servers being different universes. I don't personally subscribe to the latter theory -- when Shatterskulls (and all their derivations like Blood Wolves, etc) joined the server, they largely fit in, and now years after the fact, they're just as ingrained upon DB as they ever were on TVC.

We have to deal constantly with characters and guilds that are important to our characters and to the in-game setting suddenly disappearing out of nowhere, from guilds like Blackblood Clan and the Cult of Shadow fading with a whimper, to important and active members of the guild like Morgeth, Mazguul and such just disappearing for inexplicable reasons. A realm transfer is obviously an extreme part of that, but it's something to be weighed up in terms of positives versus negatives.

What a move essentially amounts to is you forcing me to chose between two sets fo social groups, neither of which I want to abandon. Karak cannot funtion without the blades; Siyah would have to be reset entirely because a large amount of his development is coming from the Painted skulls and Pandaren (thus a lot of what he would say and hint at would be meaningless as there would be no way of ever 'solving the riddle' as it were), and Naeemh is so beloved by the dawnchasers it would be wrong to move her. Should a move actually happen it is most likely I would give on playing WoW altogether as the sheer guilt of leaving one side out would ruin the fun of the game.

This is ultimately obviously not what we want, either when it comes to an individual or multiple people. Siyahgosh is in sort of a unique situation in regards to how closely he networks with the pandas and trolls, certainly beyond that of the average member of the guild. That doesn't mean your concerns should be dismissed out of hand, but I guess the ultimate balancing act is whether or not the inconveniences of realm transfer are outweighed by the benefits of leaving DB.

You've given your personal stake in the matter, and to give my own personal stake -- it's become largely impossible (and at best just very irritating) to organise any form of RP-PvP on this server, and engagement with PvP griefing only detracts from the server's quality of life. As an officer, I consider it my responsibility to do everything I can to keep the whole of the guild engaged and welcome, but it's also personally frustrating when attempts at resolving story-arcs or organising meaningful RP campaigns with the Alliance are met with responses like (quotes redacted to avoid naming and shaming):

"Cause every single time, you assholes can't follow them. If you try set rules, [blank] will Not follow them. We'll fucking nuke your ass back to Orgrimmar"
"[blank's] fight with DDP was a lot more fun than the skirmishes the rp-pvp campaigns ever had"
"So why are we planing an Rp-pvp campaign? It's pretty pointless to debate this, either you want Rp-pvp or you don't."
"I don't think it matters, it's obvious their are some exlclusionary elements here that just don't want people participating."
"[Blank] will not follow any rules, because people have not followed them in the past. That's final. We will be present, but we shall do so at our own terms"

And yes, those are all different people, it's not just one asshole.

AD has its toxic elements, but the addition of compulsory PvP mechanics means mere dickwaddery becomes completely obstructive, and means people like me just give up, because what's the point if it's gonna get ruined anyway?

The old adage for AD and DB was "quantity versus quality". A lot of the quality RPers I know from DB are on my Real-ID list every night on AD, and while the Horde community on Defias remains largely decent, the Alliance half on whom RP-PvP ultimately depends on is a diminished, venomous rump. At that point, Defias no longer has the claim to have 'quality' over AD, and it sure doesn't have 'quantity'.

So personally speaking, I'd rather take my chances with the good people in this guild on a realm with significantly more RP opportunities than find ourselves constricted and fenced in by what's simply not possible on a PvP realm. Tanaan is the natural conclusion of all the storylines going on both in WoD and in OotRB currently, but I worry if we'll be able to experience it without significant OOC disruption due to its nature as a Timeless-Isle style zone.

Sorry if that's a very lengthy response, but your reply has been the best case for staying on DB posted thus far, and I felt it deserved an appropriate response.

[Rashka]

To me it sounds like it's all pretty much already decided.

[Kozgugore]

Looking at the poll, the votes do seem to weigh heavily in favour. Even so, nothing has been decided just yet, and even if it were to happen, it won't for a while longer just yet I'm sure.

[Sadok]

28 people have voted in the poll so far. I've calculated that our current active core membership is not in considerable excess of 30 members, so if you have yet to vote, please do so. And if you've voted but not commented yet, please consider giving your feedback!

Every opinion counts.

[Regorn]

So your saying mine opinion counts?

[Sadok]

So your saying mine opinion counts?

If you come back and RP anytime soon, sure! Although if you're effectively MIA indefinitely, the majority verdict of our current active core probably takes priority, in the end.

I'm still open to hearing feedback from everyone, active or inactive, on the subject though.

[Revax]

I'm not currently a member but I've intended to join up again at some point, probably not with Hellbrew, at least not in his current incarnation as my monk is promised to my IRL friends raiding guild. I was however going to sign up with my warrior, either as Hellbrew with a new shiny axe, or as new character. As fate would have it, my warrior is already on AD, so if ORB would move there it would certainly be cheaper for me

I'm also one of those people that have been on DB since day 1, as I wrote in another thread recently, I was one of the founders of Sons of Draenor, a guild I believe Koz was briefly a member in before he went on to ORB. So I share the other people's sentimentality when it comes to DB and all the history I have there. But more so I share the realization that despite the fact that all RP-PVP realms are merged now, their RP is slowly but surely declining and has been for the past few years now, and the community itself is reaching new levels of toxicity with each passing month I reckon.

What Im trying to say is, I'd rather have a server full of RPers AND Lollers than a server full of griefers/lollers/asshats AND dying RP, regardless of my history there.

Having said that, I'll most likely join up again regardless what server ORB will find itself on.

Anyway, as I was curious about the result of this poll I voted the more indifferent choice, as I do not wish to sway the poll either way as Im not a current member.

[Grolgoroth]

I moved from a RP server just two months ago, so it's not strange to hear that I'm against it. But if you went to Argent Dawn, I would create a new character to RP with you. It's a short time, but it's being very funny to RP with you ^^

[Gridish]

Hey guys. I voted in favour of the move to AD and I would like to share my opinion on why I would like to see the tribe move to AD.
I quite simply used a “Pros and cons” list to make my decision. Here’s a run through!

We’ll start off with the pros:


-   It’s an opportunity for the Red Blades to grow: As it is known, Defias Brotherhood’s activity has been decreasing over time. There is some activity on the Horde side while the Alliance side is crumbling by the looks of it. When the server activity dims down even further, I don’t think there’ll be a bright future for the Red Blades on Defias Brotherhood. IF the Red Blades were to move the Argent Dawn, where the RP traffic seems to be at a higher scale, there will be more opportunities for the tribe to grow and even exist for a longer period of time then I feel it would on Defias Brotherhood.


-   More options for Outer-guild Activity: As mentioned in my first pro, Defias Brotherhood’s RP community is decreasing and therefor the RP options with other guilds on the server is also decreasing. I personally love Outer-Guild activities such as campaigns (Not as large as the Northern Rebellion mind you) and simply casual RP with guildies, but also with members from other RP guilds. It gives variation in RP for me personally that I love and I feel that we as a guild would have more possibilities on Argent Dawn.

-   No ganking: As everyone might know by now, Argent dawn is simply an RP server. Over the past few years (Strongly increasing in my eyes over the past few months) we’ve had issues with PvP guilds that are out simply to ruin RP. They do so by coming in large groups, killing the RP’ers and even corpse camp to continue their tyranny. This is a (for me personally at least) major turn-off when it comes to RP. When I log on I want to be able to relax, enjoy some good RP, hope that others have fun as well and then call it a night. However, due to the massive ganking patterns of RP griefers, it has spoiled my fun many of times… Simply put: too many times and I know for a fact that others are quite tired of this pattern of RP griefing. Therefor I also feel that a move to AD would be good for the guild.

-   We would be taking a risk: How is this a pro, one might ask. In my eyes, taking risks is a part of life. It’s a part of life you need to be able to balance out, as taking (unnecessary) risks on a regular base is bad. However, it doesn’t take away the fact that risks create opportunities. Risks that have been thought through well enough usually end up on a positive note. A move to AD would, as seen in the pros I’ve listed, create many opportunities when it comes to growth, relaxation, but most importantly fun.


Now for the cons:

-   The Red Blades will be leaving their home behind: This is something that has been brought up on several occasions and I agree. It’s a bit “greedy” in a sense to leave the RP community of DB behind to find personal success elsewhere. However, I don’t feel the tribe is bound to DB for the sole purpose of helping out DB. In my eyes the tribe is around to give a solid RP hub to players in search of one. If it’s a better move for the guild to move to AD than stay on DB, then I feel that this con is pushed aside on a rather brutal manner.

-   Mixed Feedback on the RP situation on AD: I’ve also seen players talk about the level of RP on AD being a lower standard than on DB. Then again, I’ve heard good things about the RP situation on AD. I can’t give my own opinion on the server as I’ve simply only ever RP’d on Defias Brotherhood, which does give me some doubts when it comes to the integrity of the guild’s RP. However, looking at the application process we have for the guild, my worries disappear. Our selection process for new members would stay the same, fill out an application, get it approved and follow up with an IC interview. If we come across roleplayers that we feel would “damage” the standard of RP within the guild, we can always decline the application or decline the person in the IC interview. In that sense, I don’t fear for the guild’s integrity when it comes to the level of RP that takes place.


-   Leaving the players behind that don’t want to move: There will always be a group of players that won’t agree with changes, which would result in paths splitting. IF the tribe would move to AD, then I do fear that a few members will stay behind. This is a con that does get me the most as there is simply no solution to resolving the gap that would be created if members do get left behind if the tribe moves to AD. At the end of the day, the Red Blades aren’t special because of one single person. The Red Blades are unique because we have a unique selection of RP’ers in our community. Even if it’s simply one member that would be left behind, I would be saddened as it’s just an unpleasant and nasty thought to have. I am in favour of the move to AD, but I would be truly saddened with every loss we create if the tribe would move to AD.

With that said, the pros outweigh the cons in my eyes and that is why I vote in favour of the move to AD. However, whatever is decided at the end of the day I will back up the Red Blades as it’s been an amazing, nearing two years (I think… maybe even three... Idunno) that I’ve been honoured to be part of this little RP community.

As a final note, this is simply my opinion on the idea. I ofcourse respect everyone else's opinions on the situation! Have a good night everyone .

[Mazthar]

I'm all for moving to Argent Dawn. I've got the student-money to change my one character(Mazthar). And tbh, the ganking is getting on my nerves. My only problem with moving is that I have to create character space on AD. 
I've done lots of RP on Argent Dawn, and I think moving there would open up lots of windows for the guild RP-wise.

[Umaua]

To give an opinion of AD roleplayers, still having characters there and having moved from there not thaaat long ago.

Their standards are not lower then Defias, oooh no. They are mainly focusing on different points. I'd say if anything generally AD guilds and people have very high standards that well, limit them. And those that have low standards don't usually interact too much. And then offcourse you have the angsty teen lead guild, what I mean with that is people with ideas that generally make things unbalaced for interguild roleplay, huge differences in powerlevels you could say.
I could also warn that some guilds on hordeside are just near impossible to interact with. For an example there is a guild of Burning Blade Blademasters(Ironhorde), full of veteran Blademasters that expect themselves to be treated like Lore blademasters. Meaning they expect to be invincible and able to kill regiments solo. Just try and have a conflict driven event with them...


But all in all, there are good guilds and many random RPers that are very reasonable, adaptive and welcoming. And fun to interact with. Loners who can be drawn to the flame of RP even if they never join a single guild.

[Gridish]

To give an opinion of AD roleplayers, still having characters there and having moved from there not thaaat long ago.

Their standards are not lower then Defias, oooh no. They are mainly focusing on different points. I'd say if anything generally AD guilds and people have very high standards that well, limit them. And those that have low standards don't usually interact too much. And then offcourse you have the angsty teen lead guild, what I mean with that is people with ideas that generally make things unbalaced for interguild roleplay, huge differences in powerlevels you could say.
I could also warn that some guilds on hordeside are just near impossible to interact with. For an example there is a guild of Burning Blade Blademasters(Ironhorde), full of veteran Blademasters that expect themselves to be treated like Lore blademasters. Meaning they expect to be invincible and able to kill regiments solo. Just try and have a conflict driven event with them...


But all in all, there are good guilds and many random RPers that are very reasonable, adaptive and welcoming. And fun to interact with. Loners who can be drawn to the flame of RP even if they never join a single guild.

Alright. Thank you for enlighting me ( and others possibly) on that. Like I said, I have nihil experience when it comes to rp'ing on AD, so it is nice to get some more insight on others' their perspectives on Rp on AD.

[Gashuk]

I must admit I have taken a more detailed look at AD's forums since this topic was brought up and I although I have never roleplayed on the server, I can certainly see where Umaua is coming from with those points. AD seems to be rather elitist on their view of the lore and they seemingly do not encourage or even acknowledge server lore like we do on DB. I can bet my last copper that the biggest difficulty we will experience if we shift is intregrating our detailed background; I think even our old orcish IC rank names will be sneered at but that's something to tackle when it comes to it!

I think AD does have -more- RP to get involved with, we won't get ganked and have a higher opportunity to actually forge RP-PvP campaigns that can be controlled, so I do think it's a good move to make as noted prior but if anyone has fears that the quality of RP on AD is below average, I think you need to take a read of their forums. It's not a bad quality, it's a refined quality, the question is; can OotRB sit comfortably in the mix?

[Othzog]

Hey! I just joined so I voted no strong feelings for or against. I'm still trying to find my place in the guild and see what I enjoy since it has been a while since I RPed extensively. I also have lots of things happen in RL so I don't really know if I'll keep playing through the summer etc. I've also found a newfound interest in leveling alts, now specifically an alliance alt since I've never actually experience the game from that side above lvl 20 or so.

So for me, do what you feel is best for the guild! I probably won't transfer a character if you move, since I'm just finishing my studies and don't know when I'll get paid the next time. Perhaps I'll level an alt if I miss you I probably will miss you, since you're a nice bunch, but for the reasons above I will probably not transfer!