Suggestions and Feedback

[Vanara]

It was my own choice yes.

[Mozrogg]

Never did I say that anyone asked Vanara to cancel the event, and I can only talk about my own point of view here, it is rather demoralizing to be the only one sitting around a campfire simply waiting or more hoping that another person comes along for RP, hence why I personally took the decision to go where the RP was, I can only imagine that is what Vanara thought as well only more so because he'd put the effort in to plan an event, but then that's my view point not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.

As far as I remember, it was Vanara and myself readying for an event and then 5 minutes later both in the OOC channel and ICly via guild chat it was said that you can make your way to Feralas now or make some travel RP up as you go along, but considering there was only the two of us there it didn't make much sense to make a big deal out of travelling there.

And fair enough, I was under the impression that going to the Feralas events was an idea that was on the table for a while, hence my whole problem with someone being asked to fill an event slot despite the probability of it clashing with something else. If that's not the case then my bad! And the event was cancelled as far as I'm aware simply down to lack of people showing up, hard to host a trial of the wyvern with 1 participant so the whole point of moving after the event is a little redundant.

I get the impression that people think im trying to dig out the officer team? Which isn't the case at all, as i've said countless times it needs to be a group effort, but when the group isn't there well, yeah.

[Rhonya]

Not thinking you're out to do that, I'm simply explaining why I mentioned you could go to Feralas, after Vanara mentioned he was cancelling the event in the ooc chat. I wouldn't have said that IC nor OOC if Vanara did not say he wouldn't do the event. xD
It's always sad of course if a planned event can't continue due to lack of attendance, but it does happen, even with us officers holding an event sometimes. If there had been some more people I would've taken everyone on the travel after the event.

So for the good of you two as well getting some RP, I just mentioned it a little sooner. We only decided to go to Feralas on monday. And by then every day of the week was planned with events already.

[Mozrogg]

Mm well it's a vicious cycle, someone plans an event, people don't show up, so people stop planning events and then people get annoyed by inactivity. I know I don't make events myself, but I try to at least be an initiator of RP. Hence why it may have sounded a little hypocritical of me. Once again it wasn't a case of not wanting to do an event, it was simply impossible due to no one being there.

But I shall stop moaning and suck it up as it seems none of us really have any ideas on a solution. - Well that's probably an exaggeration, i'm just being a doom monger! Not that I mean to be, just passionate about stuff etc.

[Grogok]

Hey Guys. I want to ask something that have been on my mind for a while.

Back when we were in Conquest Hold, for our " rest week". We in the officer team, wanted to try out an idea, to make Random Rp a bit more than just, sitting in an inn, or around a campfire. So we made an Ic Request board, where we could post "mini events/task" given by random npc's in the area we were in, aswell for you guys to post Ic request to other orcs, like for example. " Orc A looking for hunting party, to hunt prey x" Or "shaman B look for orcs to help gather ritualistic materials" or "Nag'Ogar C have found a place where the elements are angered, and request aid from a shaman" and so on and so forth. But Even though we made it, it seemed that people didn't react to it at all. I only know of two people who reacted to it, Tamrah, which thought it was an awesome idea, and Krogon, who tried to bump it up so it would appear in the recent topics. So I wanna know, didn't you people react, because you didn't know it was there ( it is in the ic posterboard atm, since we didn't want to make a forum if people didn't want to use it). Or was it because you didn't like the idea, in which case, what would you see implemented instead. Because I think one of our problems with the low amount of people, is also that unless some persons make event's of their own, like makaroth did while in stormpeaks, The random Rp is rather limited, which makes it perhaps a bit less appealing. I hope you guys will have some great ideas on how we can improve this ( incase it was because you didn't like the idea of the request board rather than not knowing it was there) ofcourse even if you liked the idea, but have some way to improve it, or some other way to make the Random rp, a bit more varied you are more than welcome to post it so we in the officer team can try to make the game and the guild as best as it can be, a long with our great members.

[Sadok]

Forgive me for poking my nose in here, as a retired officer, but I first suggested the addition of an IC quest-board in mid-2013, and while I no longer have access to the initial post on the officer forum, both Rargnasha's implementation and the most recent endeavour haven't been taken up due to a lack of visibility and an IC rewards system.

I can assure that you if you make a new feature easy and convenient, then give a reasonable IC reason to engage with the concept, you will see uptake. That's what we did for the RP focus concept, new New Blood teaching system (Marks), Tribe Annals section, and OOC elements like the Event Calendar, Gallery, and even these forums -- my goal in April 2015 was to increase forum usage, and it went from 294 posts per month in April to 1617 in May, and never below 600 until November.

I've raised the matter with the officer-team in the past, and more recently with Rhonya and Kozgugore directly, but I haven't yet seen any direct feedback. So that it doesn't fall through the cracks when this exact question has been posed again:

On 11/01/2016, at 21:32, Dave wrote:
By the way, I don’t understand what’s happening with this quest board thing. From what I get from [redacted], there’s some sour grapes about people not paying any attention to them and [redacted].

Granted, I didn’t even know it was a thing until I accidentally clicked on the Poster Board thread. But if you want to make it work, come up with a reward system (even if it’s BS, that’s the whole thing underpinning the forum’s shiny-pixel reward scheme), give it its own forum, and make each mission its own topic.

And announce it in the event-planning chat, since I haven’t seen anything about it, and explain it in terms that even a child would understand.

To get people to embrace change, you need to railroad it down their throats. Otherwise they’ll stick with status quo.

It doesn’t necessarily need to be hand-holding, it takes all of 30 seconds to burp out a generic quest. The important things need to be visibility and relevance â€" the latter namely being reward-based.

I guess if time is the major concern, you can just delegate amongst the officer team. Once you’ve set the thing up after a bit of brainstorming, in theory it shouldn’t take much effort to keep momentum up â€" you could even encourage people outside of the officer-team to post their own quests.

The concept isn’t flawed, it’s the execution. It’s clear some work has already went into it, so just improving visibility and providing some sort of reward would significantly encourage uptake.

Also, I don't want to sound like too much of a dictator (I did set this thread up after all), but if you ask random members for ideas too often, it can sound like there aren't any strong ideas coming from the officer team. Feedback and suggestions are always welcome, but rule by a committee as wide as our member-base will never please everyone all the time, as I noted at my last Skype meeting in early December.

Anyone here would have left OotRB fairly quickly if they didn't like the overall flavour of our events, RP and plots, so it's better to stay the course with vigour, enthusiasm and activity. We have never suffered from a lack of casual RP in the past, so long as the key cornerstones of the guild remained intact -- simple but effective plotlines, trainee-tutor relationships, an active ranks structure from New Bloods to officers, and a sense of tribal culture.

Watch the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves, as the saying goes. I'm confident that the guild is in the best hands possible, so don't change things up too much.

[Azolg]

I will be perfectly honest; I didn't know it existed Kargnar. I'd love to get involved with it however, and I have to agree with Sadoks point that it deserves it's own sub-forum. An excellent and easy place to keep it up to date, and it doesn't clutter just one thread then. People can also reply to say the bounty is complete that way!

[Kogra Windwatcher]

When I saw the board and the quests and all that on the forum, I enjoyed the idea of having it there, personally I think it adds ideas for the people to act upon if random rp is dull or people just need ideas for events.

Now the problem that I had with it at the time (and partially at the moment still) is that my character is blind, and I did not have the time back then due to college acting up and consuming a large amount of my time. By the time I did have more moments to spare, we were already out of conquest hold so it no longer seemed relevant to proceed with those quests.

Now a few months later, I must admit that I did forget about the whole board because it wasn't used that much probably. Anyway, I did like the idea of it being there.

P.s. apologies if there are random words in heart,  sitting in a wobbly train and autocorrect is on my tablet x)

[Kozgugore]

Just to point out, don't forget to throw in any feedback you might have on the new Notice Board and Prestige Rank system here! Feel free to be brutally honest, as we're still in the "Beta" phases, as it were, in trying to see how to best work this out in practice. One thing that has been raised up is the amount of new rank names, for example. Let us know if you have anything in particular  to point out!

[Bamm]

Looks interesting, makes me wish I had a functional PC I miss you guys . My bad jokes spam can only mildly iriate you all so much. I like prospect of reward for non officer team created rp very much. The only minor issue I'd have is with rank getting muddled by the prestige tier names not the roles of course. But Wouldn't keeping the original path name be easier to manage with names like alphas betas deltas?

[Revax]

Probably wont be an issue if people utilize MRP/TRP well enough.

Questions regarding switching paths, If I become for example a Thur'ruk, and decide I want to go back to follow the path of strength, I will have to start from scratch? Varog'gor rank is now only achievable through the Gul'Thauk path?

[Okiba]

While I have no right to criticize this new rank structure/system, a few people have asked me my opinion on it.

And it's not bad, at all, I actually very much like it. Its a huge shift in terms of freedom to create RP/events, allowing core members and new members to generate their own RP outside of fixed plot events. More so, it encourages it through a reward for effort system (the fangs.) I can't fault the concept on these grounds, its something that atleast to me has been sorely missing for a while. So while some may have used the old "change for changes sake" line, I say "about time", good stuff.

I will however make a suggestion, one for vigilance. My maths has never been perfect, but I do like to think ahead when I plan things... I'm not sure how often these fangs will be handed out or by whom and how... But I have this feeling that the middle ranks may very quickly become 'bloated', (bloated may be a poor word to describe this, but i'll run with it). By bloated, I mean those making events may not progress as quickly/suitably as those attending while those they give fangs to may quicly catch them up. I don't know, maybe thats why you need so many to progress? I could just be waffling, but as Koz said previously its a beta stage thing, and I -do- like the look of it, very much. It has awesome potential.

Either way, good job and an excellent road to go down.

[Groshnok]

Probably wont be an issue if people utilize MRP/TRP well enough.

Questions regarding switching paths, If I become for example a Thur'ruk, and decide I want to go back to follow the path of strength, I will have to start from scratch? Varog'gor rank is now only achievable through the Gul'Thauk path?

I'd also be interested in the answer for this one.

[Srelok]

Elder consideration isn't changing at all. Same as ever, Varog'gor is a rank you'll be selected for.

[Sadok]

I’m going to keep this very brief but precise, because I have limited interest in being shouted down under the guise that opposing elements of the deluge of new changes is tantamount to being against generating RP initiative. Unfortunately, you can’t put the genie back in the bottle, so I’m not under any aspersion that the system will be changed two days after the announcement.

I like the Notice Board and quest system in a broad sense, It’s exactly what I suggested in this very thread, when Kargnar asked for feedback on the last implementation.

Unfortunately, I greatly dislike the new rank/sub-rank/sub-sub-rank/sub-sub-sub-rank system. Let me quote from my reply to Koz, whenever we discussed this specific structure prior to its implementation:

I think the key thing is to avoid it becoming too much like a currency/rep grind, and to ensure it adds to the guild's flavour and concept rather than detract from it.

I think it’s too easy to conceive of the tribe as some sort of warband of Big Damn Heroes, which is what Rarg yanked it pretty heavily towards, and which it's in danger of drifting towards via autopilot when we focus so much of our creative efforts on combat-focused events and plot-lines.

The guild is a tribe, of course, and a nomadic tribe is basically a mobile village, and a village is a self-sustaining society with different roles that benefit the community â€" hunters, craftsmen, mystics and elders. Yank the focus back towards that and as long as you provide some cool events, the rest takes care of itself.

New Bloods learning from their tutors, Gosh’kar/Thur’ruk telling tales and performing everyday rituals, Nag’Ogar/Rrosh-tul hunting and crafting armor/weapons, Gul’thauk/Varog’Gor policing the tribe and taking care of threats inside and outside, and the Chieftain at the head of the whole society as its figurehead and leader.

Just need to give people a reason to care and invest themselves, ICly and OOCly. What they do should feel like it matters -- while something may be called a rank, a helpful way to look at it is a 'job'. Give everyone a job and some theoretical and practical thing to do in between events, and it starts to feel like an IC community.

To use the Path of Strength as an example, since a common refrain in the past has been that they have nothing to do outside of battle: any tribal society’s fighting force are warriors during war and hunters during peace â€" ergo they should be in charge of feeding, clothing, arming and supplying the tribe. That’s basically the easiest RP there is, because everyone needs to eat, wear things, wield weapons and use things.

The other two paths have even more obvious and applicable non-combat roles. The Path of Cunning are basically scouts, spies and police. You could give them a diplomacy role too, as double-agents gathering intelligence. The Path of Wisdom are your priests, scholars and lorekeepers.

Above all, I think the guild just needs to remember its concept and bring that to life in as full and immersive a way as possible. A successful, practical concept is a self-sustaining entity. If you make people feel like something interesting and fun is happening, they will log on and they will participate.

So, the tribe has gone from a simple path structure of a trial rank, three junior ranks, three senior ranks and a GM. It’s easy, it’s flexible and it works for the structure of an informal tribal society rather than a militarised warband or bureaucracy.

At present, this has been changed to a trial rank, three junior ranks with five strata of sub-ranks each with three unique names (fifteen total, plus the generalised form, for twenty new sub-ranks), the lower sub-ranks not strictly considered officially part of said junior rank, and the penultimate highest junior sub-ranks having their own sub-sub-rank of champion, with forty-three separate but multi-choice sub-sub-sub-ranks, which are all nominally voluntary but encouraged, along with two separate currency grinds with exchange rates!

Which means that the tribe’s structure has went from six distinct concepts along three paths to sixty-six separate concepts. I fail to see how we can ever meaningfully depict this with a guild whose active membership rarely exceeds twenty online players even during good times â€" and indeed, the last time the officer-team spoke on rank reform, it was to reduce the number of ranks, rather than increase them by a factor of ten.

I don’t want to be funny, but I’m a reasonably intelligent person. I’m not a genius, and my memory’s not great, but I consider myself at least average. I’ve been a strong believer in keeping things neat and simple. How do you possibly expect people to remember all of this without constant reference to various explanatory threads? Tribal societies were formed of large overlapping professional bounds, such as ‘the hunters/warriors’, or ‘the wisemen’. I’m afraid that the new structure is grossly inefficient, and certainly a case of less equalling more.

Furthermore, it’s natural that when coming up with over fifty new names, they’re not going to all be original or distinct. Yet there’s no obvious logical flow in particular between the various sub-rank and sub-sub-rank names. For instance:
- Why is a seer a rank rather than a specialisation, given that it specifically refers to someone with supernatural talent for augury, not someone who grinded 40 of a currency?
- Ditto for keeper and caller, which are not ranks but distinct talents. Why is a keeper above a caller? Why is a keeper below a seer? They could realistically come in any order and make the same amount of sense.
- Shadow and Reaver are even worse, because of their sheer generic nature.

The very first place to cut out the bloat would be here, given the purely arbitrary nature of many of these labels, and the fact that they seemingly overwrite the genericised sub-ranks of Oathbound, Seeker, Proven and Chosen, which don’t seem to have any particular descriptive use and could just as easily be filled with numbers one through four.

In addition, this new structure is ostensibly designed to increase initiative, but in multiple regards, it only restricts opportunity until you’ve grinded enough currency. Some questions:
1- Why do you have to grind 60 Fangs (or complete on average 30 missions!) before you can lead a warband, if the goal is to enable more people to use their initiative?
2- Why does the Alpha, the right-hand of an Elder, need his own right-hand of a Champion? And what do they even do in any meaningful sense, in a guild with 20 people in it at the best of times?
3- Why do you have to ‘earn’ a member spotlight? Why not take a moment to highlight a newer member making a splash, or otherwise ask people to volunteer instead of locking it behind a 40-fang grind?

In short, it feels like rearranging the deckchairs and getting carried away with a bunch of fancy different ranks, instead of focusing those creative energies on the guild’s events and concept â€" breathing life into the notion of an orcish tribe, rather than a 66-tier specialisation system from some D&D manual. Since I joined OotRB in 2011, I always appreciated the lack of fan-wank, pretence and simple bull-shit that weighed down so many guilds, their concepts and their rank-schemes.

I’m afraid that this has simply gone too far in the opposite direction, and it doesn’t matter how much time or effort you’ve put into it â€" that doesn’t affect its intrinsic merits. A good idea is good whether it took you a minute or an hour, and a bad idea is a bad in the same regard. I have, after all, put time and effort into this feedback, and that doesn't mean you have to agree with me.

Thanks, and I would appreciate level-headed responses to my feedback.