I would really like more Bloodied Blades events. There hasn't been a main plot using the system for ages, and I really miss it.
I would really like more Bloodied Blades events. There hasn't been a main plot using the system for ages, and I really miss it.
IC - More training would be nice to see. I know it's more a of a peaceful time at the minute, but we wouldn't want rusty blades now would we!IC - Ghrm, ye' need only ask, which ye' did, good. I will see abou' gettin' som' war trainin' started aroun' the end o' the month. Keep an eye on the notice-board, date an' time will be ther' in the comin' days.
OOC: Bloodied Blades for me is a bit too over the top, I enjoy the system that Gridish uses (I believe), which is more relaxed but still incorporates, rolling, an emote order and the DM replies to your emote attempt.
Though the first is most likely a widely thought of/noted thing, I'll give it a mention regardless. When it comes to diplomacy I've always found it bizzare that we try to force relations with those that threaten/try to kill us. Just seems odd, but eh.
As for the second and more main thing... Well its a case of IC seeping into OOC. Over the years i've noticed that when a Red blade members fudges up IC, be it misbheaviour of one kind or another, the go to punishment is always or at least seems to be demotion. Now don't get me wrong, its a logical punishment, but it has several ooc problems coupled to it. For one, those who suffer demotions seem to lose OOC motivation/decrease in activity as their progression in the guild is stubbed or reversed. This I feel is undesireable and I think demotions should be moved to a more 'near last resort' option, and instead a more solid range of actual punishments... like lashes, extra duty's, hard labour, latrine pit digging/filling/cleaning would do much better. This would create more RP, but be less likely to put a player off.
That said and done, Demotions do have their time and place, but I really do think we leap at that option far too eagerly. Its not an urgent problem, but its certainly a subtle background snag we have had for a long while.
Thanks for the feedback thus far! I'll try to respond to everything as much as I'm able -- the intent isn't to simply put down any suggestions, but rather to explain a little why things are done as they are presently, with a view to opening up a dialogue about a third way somewhere between the suggestion and the status quo.Though the first is most likely a widely thought of/noted thing, I'll give it a mention regardless. When it comes to diplomacy I've always found it bizzare that we try to force relations with those that threaten/try to kill us. Just seems odd, but eh.
Do you have any specific examples in mind? I'm guessing you probably have stuff like Moneyfix or the Blood Wolves in your head, but I'll just give a more generic answer for now.
We do belong to a Horde RP community, in both an IC and OOC sense, and it's for the collective benefit of all those in that community that we form together for cross-guild relations, be that cultural festivals like Kosh'harg or more intricate affairs like campaigns.
Obviously, nearly all of RP is founded on character conflict (be that discussion, arguments or actual violence), and we regularly interact with characters and guilds whose IC philosophies jar with our own and lead to the likes of threats and violence. I think there's a balance to be struck somewhere between being 'forgiving' of the past and not coming across as idiots who don't learn from their mistakes, and I'm not sure if we've struck it yet.
For what it's worth, we've went through a phase of a couple of months post-WoD where we've been a little more isolationist for the sake of breathing room, and I believe Koz is planning on heading an effort to recast the Horde Gathering in a more decentralised, amiable fashion -- aiding each other on a 'supply and demand' basis, running meetings with fewer representatives with a diplomatic rather than military bent, and having a neutral moderator keeping people in check each session while staying out of the discussion (like a parliamentary speaker).
I don't know if that conception of the Gathering will make it out of blueprint stage, or whether it'll work in execution. But we are actively trying to consider how to make inter-guild relations work while avoiding some of the pitfalls of the past, for the benefit of everybody's collective RP experience.As for the second and more main thing... Well its a case of IC seeping into OOC. Over the years i've noticed that when a Red blade members fudges up IC, be it misbheaviour of one kind or another, the go to punishment is always or at least seems to be demotion. Now don't get me wrong, its a logical punishment, but it has several ooc problems coupled to it. For one, those who suffer demotions seem to lose OOC motivation/decrease in activity as their progression in the guild is stubbed or reversed. This I feel is undesireable and I think demotions should be moved to a more 'near last resort' option, and instead a more solid range of actual punishments... like lashes, extra duty's, hard labour, latrine pit digging/filling/cleaning would do much better. This would create more RP, but be less likely to put a player off.
That said and done, Demotions do have their time and place, but I really do think we leap at that option far too eagerly. Its not an urgent problem, but its certainly a subtle background snag we have had for a long while.
I can only speak for myself, but I've always approached demotions as a last resort myself -- certainly, Sadok will be quick to hand out warnings and cautions whenever an orc acts inappropriately for their station within the tribe, but it takes a bit more to nudge him over the line into actually demoting an orc. I am aware that other officers have a less tolerant view dependent on the situation though.
The question of demotion seems to be tied up with discipline and tribal duties, and I do want to emphasise that OotRB is predominantly a tribal society guild rather than strictly a warband -- so while martial punishments like latrine-duty and hard labour may make sense for soldiers, there is the question about whether that would be inappropriate in a non-military context.
Demotions from the middling ranks (Nag'Ogar/Gosh'kar/Gul'thauk) tend to be done because those positions entail a certain basic competency and responsibility, or more simply, trust is placed in those orcs. When they continually abuse that trust through irresponsible behaviour or incompetent execution of duties, demotion is only natural.
The question of Oathbreaking is more difficult, because the Oath of Blood isn't some document of law with subclauses that orcs agree to, but a more vague pledge of loyalty to the tribe's values -- so in a lot of cases, the claim of whether an orc has broken that Oath is ultimately subjective (unless they're doing something irredeemably evil like eating babies).
I have to say, I share your ultimate concern about demotions leading to lack of OOC motivation, because it generally takes a far shorter period of time to 'lose' a rank than to train (or retrain) as one, because between all the tasks and such, it's far harder than ever to actually attain a rank in the guild.
I guess I'll end my reply by asking two questions of my own, both for Krogon, Groshnok, and anyone else to answer:
1- Do you think lashings and the like are appropriate within the culture of a tribe? And if not, do you have any ideas about more suitable punishments that would fall short of demotion?
2- Do you think too much is asked of orcs wanting to become Nag'Ogar/Gosh'kar/Gul'thauk, and do you have any suggestions about how the tribe structure and training might be reformed accordingly?
To the second, overall I like the direction Koz has in mind for the Nag'ogar in particular. Rather than lone/single warriors fighting for personal honour he's pushing the nag'ogar toward a 'team', giving it great emphasis on teamwork/unit based efforts rather than what loners can/can't do. But, unlike the gosh'kar (or gul'thauk, but me and most folks are unaware how thats run now) theres no step by step system to achieving the rank, Don't get me wrong I enjoy war trainings but some folks have been waiting upward of six months to become nag'ogar... so that answers your last point too, I do believe in some cases its quite difficult to attain a rank, especially for the Nag'ogar. But again, I don't know what Koz has in mind for the future. So we shall see. I do think regular events for each path, such as war training for the nag'ogar and their trainee's to build inter path bonds is good, but it often needs more reliable substance in the form of regular events/aims.
But as I see it, each of the 'senior' ranks (Gul'thauk/Gosh'kar/Nag'ogar) should have four standard'ish tasks to complete to achieve their rank, Not counting the respective Alphas of course. Standardisation is never a bad thing I think, and giving people clear objectives to strive toward is something I would like to see.
As you brought it up yourself Rashka.
It was (to the best of my knowledge) not just one incident with Rashka, but several times she'd actually attacked other Red Blades, not to mention doing so -during- Kosh'harg. She had been given several chances to change her behaviour but did not do so. Eventually things does reach a certain point where a demotion is the 'last resort'.
I really doubt it's a permanent ban from training as Nag'Ogar, but rather one where until such a time as you have proven yourself beyond the specific actions that led to the eventual demotion she is barred from it. Once she's proven herself capable of acting as is expected as a Nag'Ogar then she can most likely begin such training again.
As you brought it up yourself Rashka.
It was (to the best of my knowledge) not just one incident with Rashka, but several times she'd actually attacked other Red Blades, not to mention doing so -during- Kosh'harg. She had been given several chances to change her behaviour but did not do so. Eventually things does reach a certain point where a demotion is the 'last resort'.
I really doubt it's a permanent ban from training as Nag'Ogar, but rather one where until such a time as you have proven yourself beyond the specific actions that led to the eventual demotion she is barred from it. Once she's proven herself capable of acting as is expected as a Nag'Ogar then she can most likely begin such training again.
Actually no. That was the first incident. As far as I remember then. Afterwards she did however slap Vanara. But that's everything. And yes Krogon. "Prove yourself" She was told that by Grogona after completing all her training too, and honestly... She had? Loads of times. Really.
'prove yourself'.
"how"?
Is the inevitable question. we're forver hearing that sentance yet no clear instruction on how comes to the forefront.
Alright, we've had an OOC meeting about the feedback raised in regards to alternate punishments, and we've got a compromise measure, which I'm submitting for the likes of Rashka, Krogon and such to provide their opinions on:
Suspension (or Lapsing/Barring/insert suitable orcish name)
An orc who has trained once for a rank and been promoted is clearly competent enough to perform the duties the rank entails (be it rituals for Gosh'kar, pack-tactics for Nag'Ogar etc). Most demotions tend to occur due to discipline issues or miscellaneous factors, and retraining doesn't really address that issue -- it's more of a chore for all concerned, from the orc demoted to the orc having to fully retrain them.
As such, here's the example for the new system:
a) Nag'Ogar A refuses to follow a direct order (or some other offense);
b) Nag'Ogar A is suspended from their duties. They are still Nag'Ogar in the guild-roster rather than being demoted, but have none of the rights or responsibilities of their rank until the suspension is waived;
c) The suspension is waived whenever the orc has been deemed by their appropriate elder (in the case of Nag'Ogar A, a Rrosh-tul or the Chieftain) to have earned trust back by performing task(s) related to the offence in question -- in our example, Nag'Ogar A might be called upon to carry out an order similar to the one he initially refused;
d) Whenever the suspension is waived, Nag'Ogar A once again assumes the full duties of Nag'Ogar. No further retraining or rigmarole is required.
In short, it's an effective 'demotion' until the orc has repented of the specific offences that earned their suspension, but they do not have to go through the whole process of retraining and so once a rank is 'earned', it cannot be forever unearned.
Any thoughts on this as a more player-friendly alternative to "Nag'Ogar A has been demoted to Oathbound, and must prove himself before even beginning to retrain"? If there's positive feedback, we may introduce this system ICly as soon as a week or two from now.
perhaps a "shaming" or some made up orcish word, but overall I like the idea.
Alright, we've had an OOC meeting about the feedback raised in regards to alternate punishments, and we've got a compromise measure, which I'm submitting for the likes of Rashka, Krogon and such to provide their opinions on:
Suspension (or Lapsing/Barring/insert suitable orcish name)
An orc who has trained once for a rank and been promoted is clearly competent enough to perform the duties the rank entails (be it rituals for Gosh'kar, pack-tactics for Nag'Ogar etc). Most demotions tend to occur due to discipline issues or miscellaneous factors, and retraining doesn't really address that issue -- it's more of a chore for all concerned, from the orc demoted to the orc having to fully retrain them.
As such, here's the example for the new system:
a) Nag'Ogar A refuses to follow a direct order (or some other offense);
b) Nag'Ogar A is suspended from their duties. They are still Nag'Ogar in the guild-roster rather than being demoted, but have none of the rights or responsibilities of their rank until the suspension is waived;
c) The suspension is waived whenever the orc has been deemed by their appropriate elder (in the case of Nag'Ogar A, a Rrosh-tul or the Chieftain) to have earned trust back by performing task(s) related to the offence in question -- in our example, Nag'Ogar A might be called upon to carry out an order similar to the one he initially refused;
d) Whenever the suspension is waived, Nag'Ogar A once again assumes the full duties of Nag'Ogar. No further retraining or rigmarole is required.
In short, it's an effective 'demotion' until the orc has repented of the specific offences that earned their suspension, but they do not have to go through the whole process of retraining and so once a rank is 'earned', it cannot be forever unearned.
Any thoughts on this as a more player-friendly alternative to "Nag'Ogar A has been demoted to Oathbound, and must prove himself before even beginning to retrain"? If there's positive feedback, we may introduce this system ICly as soon as a week or two from now.
I quite like that, very simple and likely effective. Though I'd not call it a 'suspension' :p we're not good cops gone bad! ;D
perhaps a "shaming" or some made up orcish word, but overall I like the idea.
A shout out to those training for Nag'Ogar/Those that have recently completed their training as Nag'ogar under my supervision.
As you are the first ones to actually receive this training, I'd like some feedback on it. I'm searching for ways to improve the training as a whole.
If you think it was to short, put it down! If you think some tasks need changing, let me know! Do keep in mind that the majority of you have skipped a task due to completing it under Kozgugore's supervision before my return to wow!
other than that, please let me know what you think of the training so far/what you've experiences in the training for Nag'Ogar!
Thank you in advance!
- Gridish
We actually discussed the group things, and the Hakas were mentioned.
The problem with group activities is that if people don't show up, others might find it hard to progress. Say there was a Nag'Ogar training on a wednesday and Buckethead#1 was the only one able to show up because Buckethead#2 and #3 was doing RBGs. Then #1 simply can't continue at that point.
I'm not sure what Gridish's plan is. But it could be that there'll still be group things, but they won't be required as a part of the training.
Another new suggestion!
I recommend making a Red blade guild twitter account! - that can be managed by the officer team or just one, to provide coverage of events and such, as well as link up the accounts of guild members!
But then..when its condensed into 2 days it makes missing a day even more devastating if you want to keep up
Our reasoning for the Thursday being the quiet night is that it's the day with the lowest attendance over all.
2 plot days a week has up and downsides. Upside being more downtime time and possibilities for other tribe members to host their own events. But then..when its condensed into 2 days it makes missing a day even more devastating if you want to keep up. Unless the contents of the events are also diluted so it isn't so condensed as they have tended to be
All in all, your plans require either very active campfire RP or active smaller event makers/smaller events. As if the events last longer and there is more downtime, it all effects to this.
Im going to play devils advocate here, because while you know full well what I think you all do is fantastic, I have a few issues about this campaign (Which I can actually comment on because i've been here for every event, yay!) that im going to raise. I'll try not to be harsh because its a lot of work gone into it; But i won' dance around any points at the same time.
The Plot: I think the plot had great potential. I loved the survival aspects and the maddening whispers in the area referencing that a certain something wasn't entirely defeated as was first thought back in WOTLK. I loved the environmental updates and I loved the general theme of the place and not knowing where we are. I disliked that some folks acted like they knew where we were - But that's out of our hands, and its down to those individuals to have a suspension of disbelief and go along with the plot otherwise it ruins things. I could genuinely have had a survival plot as we made out way out of Storm Peaks, with the whispers as an undertone and scene setting in the background as simply another thing to escape from (We've barely any gear, food is limited and we're all struggling to sleep as it is.) Before we found civilization and then went on to find this Dwarf warband and take them out for good.
Heres what I don't like: Why on earth are we so driven to take out the source of these whispers when it's clear that the further away we are - We wont hear them. We're struggling for food and supplies. We're overtired, struggling to sleep and frankly in some of the worst conditions we will ever face and we're delving into Ulduar and the surrounding areas to stamp out whatever source is offering these whispers, which in real terms is going to be a being of some formidable power if im perfectly honest. It makes such little sense for a Tribe that I consider to be quite logical in it's actions. We could move out, get our bearings. Find some maps from a nearby town in Grizzly/Howling Fjord or get some local intel. Recharge up and then head back in for the final confrontation; Yet we're needlessly I feel trying to struggle against a foe we could easily come back to and take out when we're in a better place. It feels strange, and Makaroth shared the same view; We never heard any whispers before we got here why don't we just leave instead of taking the fight when the odds are stacked against us? I've deliberately stopped mentioning it IC'ly because I feel all it will do is create more tension without changing anything - As I can't expect the plot to just get dropped and be done with it; Thats not fair on anyone at all, mostly the guys involved creating this plot.
I feel it's tarnished the experience a little. I know the Tribe has never been to Ulduar, and it's a cool place to incorporate into the storyline, and probably would be an extremely awesome story-arc; But the current conditions we face I can't get past the fact it just feels like lunacy to go against this foe when we're struggling to stay alive.
As for Skidderbeard; I could go on about how we could have jumped on the Goblin when he said we were going to fly into a storm; But we needed a way to crash the zeppelin, so I can suspend disbelief for that one - I can't think how the Tribe would ever trust the character again though.
What happens next?: For me, I absolutely despise Christmas. I am bah humbug in every sense of the word, which I won't rant about here because now's not the time (Don't ask me unless you want your ears blown off in an anti-Christmas hate rant.) I personally wouldn't mind staying in Conquest Hold and just having some down-time. I'll be online all over the Christmas period and willing to hold some mini-events and the like (Hunts, game nights; things like that) for anyone who does want to come online but i'd be apprehensive about heading back to Razor Hill just for the sake of RP and to go and mingle; As I feel it'd tarnish the immersion somewhat of Northrend. Would also give me a chance to get through the massive Steam library I have of games i've never played on nights where it's quiet and nobody's on (Christmas day anyway? I'll be playing Fallout 4) - But thats not a priority of course.
Ideas: I realize this isn't for everyone - But I love PvE roll emote battles. I'd love to see more, but I know that there are some horrible memories of hours and hours of rolling battles floating around, plus I know there's a large consensus that doesn't like roll battles in PvE situations. I'd personally love to implement full detailed character sheets for us to fill out, DnD style with lots of different customization options; Again I fear i'm probably dreaming here - But i'd happily help create such a thing if it came to fruition.
I hope that at least offers a critical but fair viewpoint. I do love all the work you do and you know I always want to help out whenever I can. I love this Tribe, and I'll always want to try and improve things with you all.
Much love my cherubs.
Heres what I don't like: Why on earth are we so driven to take out the source of these whispers when it's clear that the further away we are - We wont hear them. We're struggling for food and supplies. We're overtired, struggling to sleep and frankly in some of the worst conditions we will ever face and we're delving into Ulduar and the surrounding areas to stamp out whatever source is offering these whispers, which in real terms is going to be a being of some formidable power if im perfectly honest. It makes such little sense for a Tribe that I consider to be quite logical in it's actions. We could move out, get our bearings. Find some maps from a nearby town in Grizzly/Howling Fjord or get some local intel. Recharge up and then head back in for the final confrontation; Yet we're needlessly I feel trying to struggle against a foe we could easily come back to and take out when we're in a better place. It feels strange, and Makaroth shared the same view; We never heard any whispers before we got here why don't we just leave instead of taking the fight when the odds are stacked against us? I've deliberately stopped mentioning it IC'ly because I feel all it will do is create more tension without changing anything - As I can't expect the plot to just get dropped and be done with it; Thats not fair on anyone at all, mostly the guys involved creating this plot.
Heres what I don't like: Why on earth are we so driven to take out the source of these whispers when it's clear that the further away we are - We wont hear them. We're struggling for food and supplies. We're overtired, struggling to sleep and frankly in some of the worst conditions we will ever face and we're delving into Ulduar and the surrounding areas to stamp out whatever source is offering these whispers, which in real terms is going to be a being of some formidable power if im perfectly honest. It makes such little sense for a Tribe that I consider to be quite logical in it's actions. We could move out, get our bearings. Find some maps from a nearby town in Grizzly/Howling Fjord or get some local intel. Recharge up and then head back in for the final confrontation; Yet we're needlessly I feel trying to struggle against a foe we could easily come back to and take out when we're in a better place. It feels strange, and Makaroth shared the same view;
As for Skidderbeard; I could go on about how we could have jumped on the Goblin when he said we were going to fly into a storm; But we needed a way to crash the zeppelin, so I can suspend disbelief for that one - I can't think how the Tribe would ever trust the character again though.
Ideas: I realize this isn't for everyone - But I love PvE roll emote battles. I'd love to see more, but I know that there are some horrible memories of hours and hours of rolling battles floating around, plus I know there's a large consensus that doesn't like roll battles in PvE situations. I'd personally love to implement full detailed character sheets for us to fill out, DnD style with lots of different customization options; Again I fear i'm probably dreaming here - But i'd happily help create such a thing if it came to fruition.
The generic /roll 40+ to suceed, 'take as much damage as you want' hosted by a party DM works really, really well and allows players to do what their character would do - i.e. having played support casters for two years now with both Siyah and Nem it's very ahrd to do anything but attack (can't barrier? Can't slow or debuff?) as it's never taken into account in bloodied blades and impossible to arbitrate probably in large events.
1) We don't leave then come back because of a multitude of ooc reasons. Namely christmas is coming, we don't have time for back and forth antics. on a more IC level, we don't know how to get down IC, nor do we entirely know if we would get back in time to stem the problem again. it too could recuperate.
2) You are Orcs. What kind of Orc lets hunger or fear dictate actions? You headbutt the problem until it goes away, because thats what Orcs do. Yes, nobody heard whispers until we all got here, but it would be reckless and foolish to leave without dealing with the problem.
The goblin is for comic relief, and the occasional punching bag. a familiar travelling face used by Gridish as a plot tool, namely an unreliable 'captain' that woudl explain a crash, or five. yes we could all be super serious and not use him again, but wheres the fun in that?
I hate Bloodied blades. I love Rarg, but bringing that into the guild/RP was just -stupid-, Hated every moment of it from top to bottom. I also have a lot of bad experience with DM'ing, it can be slow, tedious, extremely boring and frankly off-putting. I despite long winded, over thought out encounters that are only meant to grind your character into pulp... all you do is spend weeks with a wounded/maimed character unable to do anything but "rest". No, what I do enjoy is simple, fast paced Dm'ing... as siyah has mentioned and I will go on to now...
While I've been unable to commit as much time as I would have wanted to attending events in this particular campaign and I therefore can't speak on behalf of the organizer, I can very well imagine retreating to regain our senses for a period of time would have drawn out the plot far too long and wide. It wouldn't be the first (and certainly not the last) time that an IC decision is made, be it for the sake of the plot or otherwise, that doesn't make any sense but is necessitated for OOC reasons. It would quite possibly have taken far too long and it would have removed any manner of climax from the plot. Once again, I'm not sure if that was actually the intention or there was another reason to it, but it seems like a fair logic to me.
As for our next course of action (even though I don't expect my busy period to end any time soon and I'll certainly be gone for Christmas and new years), you know my opinion on that. Though I can safely say I see eye to eye with Krogon in regards to AD and cross-guild interaction.
Edit: Posted while I didn't see the above post yet. Though in my opinion, the point remains that you sometimes have to go with the IC flow for the sake of some OOC convenience. Not -too- much either of course, but I do believe things would have gotten dragged out too much.
The Plot: I think the plot had great potential. I loved the survival aspects and the maddening whispers in the area referencing that a certain something wasn't entirely defeated as was first thought back in WOTLK. I loved the environmental updates and I loved the general theme of the place and not knowing where we are. I disliked that some folks acted like they knew where we were - But that's out of our hands, and its down to those individuals to have a suspension of disbelief and go along with the plot otherwise it ruins things. I could genuinely have had a survival plot as we made out way out of Storm Peaks, with the whispers as an undertone and scene setting in the background as simply another thing to escape from (We've barely any gear, food is limited and we're all struggling to sleep as it is.) Before we found civilization and then went on to find this Dwarf warband and take them out for good.
Heres what I don't like: Why on earth are we so driven to take out the source of these whispers when it's clear that the further away we are - We wont hear them. We're struggling for food and supplies. We're overtired, struggling to sleep and frankly in some of the worst conditions we will ever face and we're delving into Ulduar and the surrounding areas to stamp out whatever source is offering these whispers, which in real terms is going to be a being of some formidable power if im perfectly honest. It makes such little sense for a Tribe that I consider to be quite logical in it's actions. We could move out, get our bearings. Find some maps from a nearby town in Grizzly/Howling Fjord or get some local intel. Recharge up and then head back in for the final confrontation; Yet we're needlessly I feel trying to struggle against a foe we could easily come back to and take out when we're in a better place. It feels strange, and Makaroth shared the same view; We never heard any whispers before we got here why don't we just leave instead of taking the fight when the odds are stacked against us?
As for Skidderbeard; I could go on about how we could have jumped on the Goblin when he said we were going to fly into a storm; But we needed a way to crash the zeppelin, so I can suspend disbelief for that one - I can't think how the Tribe would ever trust the character again though.
Ideas: I realize this isn't for everyone - But I love PvE roll emote battles. I'd love to see more, but I know that there are some horrible memories of hours and hours of rolling battles floating around, plus I know there's a large consensus that doesn't like roll battles in PvE situations. I'd personally love to implement full detailed character sheets for us to fill out, DnD style with lots of different customization options; Again I fear i'm probably dreaming here - But i'd happily help create such a thing if it came to fruition.
Don't use bloodied blades though, golly.
-Also been on several long, out the way ventures where the tribe has been away from city's and members have not been allowed to venture off and do their own thing to a great degree. While I agree immersion can be broken a little by portals/teleports/travel times, its also detrimental to a players interest to be stuck in one place all the time with no option of moving around, especially out the sticks. The current RP plot in storm peaks is an example. not only has it prevented people going elsewhere, often causing them to opt to play alts that can travel instead of their orcs, its also prevented recruitment, i think two recruits had to wait well over a week for an IC interview?
-The tribe has indeed attended Horde'mar summits, and has done a shared plot with the hand of agony. But everything else has been done alone, at its pace and away from randoms/other guilds. So again, people are opting to play alts with other guilds that can do/go where they please with more freedom. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, or that small numbers is a bad thing, but these sort of passive restrictions are unhealthy.
While the current Storm peaks plot has been good, its been excellent in fact i've enjoyed all the events... such plots are restrictive. I've found ymself struggling to RP between events as a 'tag along', most guild members are on alts RP'ing where they can go where they please, typically from hub to hub for the bigger interactions and the freedom.
3 - A tag along initiative, a big one. Invite other guilds to follow the tribe around, and especially randoms, create a large, mobile hub. A "caravan" of sorts, thats follows the tribe. This not only promotes the guild as a whole, and orcish rp... making people consider joining, but also allows for much more random rp and encounters. This is the integration i spoke of.
I'll make a long reply to what's been said tomorrow, I had a busy week and have people sleeping in my house (Sadok and Kogra) so that's why I've been inactive.
To the topic of inactive officers, we have five active officers. Sadok has stepped down for an undecided amount of time, Therak has left the officer team.
Ed and me have been away this week, so yeah, you had to do with Gridish, Kargnar and Koz alone. Kargnar has had a lot of issues with his computer and Koz has been very busy with irl.
Officers have a life as well as any of you, but that doesn't mean the guild is 'dying' only if we're away for a little while or finally doing our -first- plot on our own since we came to AD. Last couple of weeks events still has been 10-15 members total, which is often the amount we had on DB as well, so I'm not too worried.
Long answer tomorrow- I need sleeeeep!
3 - A tag along initiative, a big one. Invite other guilds to follow the tribe around, and especially randoms, create a large, mobile hub. A "caravan" of sorts, thats follows the tribe. This not only promotes the guild as a whole, and orcish rp... making people consider joining, but also allows for much more random rp and encounters. This is the integration i spoke of.
The other thing was is that at least myself got numerous questions from other horde members icly on where the blades would go next, which I could not really answer since it was unknown. It was a bit frustrating to have to reply to them in that way.
QuoteThe other thing was is that at least myself got numerous questions from other horde members icly on where the blades would go next, which I could not really answer since it was unknown. It was a bit frustrating to have to reply to them in that way.
At least to this part, we couldn't really tell that ourselves either. I mentioned a few times in the chat at least and it was on the calendar that we'd go to Silvermoon/Ghostlands for the RP-pvp campaign, but ICly we didn't have any information of this yet. (because the organisers chose it that way.) That thing is now cancelled at least, but we'll go with the alternative to Darkshore.
What I mainly hear from people (and I talk to many) is that the issue is mainly wow being so boring right now. They don't have the urge to log in at all, and don't find the RP only worth it to pay for a game they otherwise don't enjoy. (And that goes for all RP, not only our guild.)
We had the same 'problem' before WoD came out, because the wait betwene expansions is so long as well.
Wow is on an ever low amount of subs right now, so I'm not surprised after WoD's dissapointment that even more people left.
I'm still of opinion, quality over quantity. You can have all the numbers of people you want, but that won't mean it'll be good RP. I'm happier with maybe only 4-5 people to RP with that I really enjoy, than 20 spamming me playing characters I would normally not really indulge myself with.
Time will tell. We'll keep going, do what we can, but even officers can't do without active members. It's a group effort.
I'm not entirely sure what the main problem is that you're trying to point out here. Is it the lack of people joining in/initiating RP (or lesser events)? Is it inactivity overall? Some kind of lack of communication towards members? Or is it the going from one event to another part? All seem to be inherently different 'issues', but it kind of seems like there's one particular matter that triggered you to be upset/worried enough to fire off this post.
Either way, I don't think anyone is blind when it comes to inactivity, but this is not really something one particular individual has in hand, like you point out. Inactivity has slowly started becoming a problem throughout WoD due to the lack of content and people just waiting for new content, with RP not being the deciding factor for people to stick around forever. That of course doesn't excuse the guild's own agenda or lack thereof, but the move to Feralas was very consciously done in order to move the guild to a slightly more populated place for the duration of a particular event. The intention was by no means to have people moving over on Thursday in the middle of Vanara's event already. From the impression I got, it appears people started moving out there on their own accord already. So in that regard, a slight lack of communication seemed to be main issue (although it probably wouldn't have happened if more had been able to show up for the event itself).
I don't think the officer team has anything to hide, so if it's transparency you're asking for, by all means. But I'm personally just not quite sure what you need transparency about, since we've decided to simply move back to Durotar to give random RP a chance in order to not constantly be on the move and campaigning. Having said that, there -is- another campaign coming up led by other guilds, true, but tagging along with other, bigger guilds has always been one of the safer ways to re-initiate member activity again (should they be interested in RP in the first place), so we'll just see what the attendance will be like throughout that week. While I'm finally able to show up again more as of tonight, I don't really get the impression a lot of people left in the plot planning Skype chat for example are still active at all, so you have to kickstart things again from somewhere.
On 11/01/2016, at 21:32, Dave wrote:
By the way, I don’t understand what’s happening with this quest board thing. From what I get from [redacted], there’s some sour grapes about people not paying any attention to them and [redacted].
Granted, I didn’t even know it was a thing until I accidentally clicked on the Poster Board thread. But if you want to make it work, come up with a reward system (even if it’s BS, that’s the whole thing underpinning the forum’s shiny-pixel reward scheme), give it its own forum, and make each mission its own topic.
And announce it in the event-planning chat, since I haven’t seen anything about it, and explain it in terms that even a child would understand.
To get people to embrace change, you need to railroad it down their throats. Otherwise they’ll stick with status quo.
It doesn’t necessarily need to be hand-holding, it takes all of 30 seconds to burp out a generic quest. The important things need to be visibility and relevance — the latter namely being reward-based.
I guess if time is the major concern, you can just delegate amongst the officer team. Once you’ve set the thing up after a bit of brainstorming, in theory it shouldn’t take much effort to keep momentum up — you could even encourage people outside of the officer-team to post their own quests.
The concept isn’t flawed, it’s the execution. It’s clear some work has already went into it, so just improving visibility and providing some sort of reward would significantly encourage uptake.
Probably wont be an issue if people utilize MRP/TRP well enough.
Questions regarding switching paths, If I become for example a Thur'ruk, and decide I want to go back to follow the path of strength, I will have to start from scratch? Varog'gor rank is now only achievable through the Gul'Thauk path?
I think the key thing is to avoid it becoming too much like a currency/rep grind, and to ensure it adds to the guild's flavour and concept rather than detract from it.
I think it’s too easy to conceive of the tribe as some sort of warband of Big Damn Heroes, which is what Rarg yanked it pretty heavily towards, and which it's in danger of drifting towards via autopilot when we focus so much of our creative efforts on combat-focused events and plot-lines.
The guild is a tribe, of course, and a nomadic tribe is basically a mobile village, and a village is a self-sustaining society with different roles that benefit the community — hunters, craftsmen, mystics and elders. Yank the focus back towards that and as long as you provide some cool events, the rest takes care of itself.
New Bloods learning from their tutors, Gosh’kar/Thur’ruk telling tales and performing everyday rituals, Nag’Ogar/Rrosh-tul hunting and crafting armor/weapons, Gul’thauk/Varog’Gor policing the tribe and taking care of threats inside and outside, and the Chieftain at the head of the whole society as its figurehead and leader.
Just need to give people a reason to care and invest themselves, ICly and OOCly. What they do should feel like it matters -- while something may be called a rank, a helpful way to look at it is a 'job'. Give everyone a job and some theoretical and practical thing to do in between events, and it starts to feel like an IC community.
To use the Path of Strength as an example, since a common refrain in the past has been that they have nothing to do outside of battle: any tribal society’s fighting force are warriors during war and hunters during peace — ergo they should be in charge of feeding, clothing, arming and supplying the tribe. That’s basically the easiest RP there is, because everyone needs to eat, wear things, wield weapons and use things.
The other two paths have even more obvious and applicable non-combat roles. The Path of Cunning are basically scouts, spies and police. You could give them a diplomacy role too, as double-agents gathering intelligence. The Path of Wisdom are your priests, scholars and lorekeepers.
Above all, I think the guild just needs to remember its concept and bring that to life in as full and immersive a way as possible. A successful, practical concept is a self-sustaining entity. If you make people feel like something interesting and fun is happening, they will log on and they will participate.
Also, people will now start to take part in events just so they can grind a currency to advance to a higher rank. This feels like grinding rep in the game just so we can buy new stuff from a certain faction. The old system was good as it was... If something is not broken why change it?
But the quest board is very good for adding rp between events and campaigns.
I will however make a suggestion, one for vigilance. My maths has never been perfect, but I do like to think ahead when I plan things... I'm not sure how often these fangs will be handed out or by whom and how... But I have this feeling that the middle ranks may very quickly become 'bloated', (bloated may be a poor word to describe this, but i'll run with it). By bloated, I mean those making events may not progress as quickly/suitably as those attending while those they give fangs to may quicly catch them up. I don't know, maybe thats why you need so many to progress? I could just be waffling, but as Koz said previously its a beta stage thing, and I -do- like the look of it, very much. It has awesome potential.
The guild is a tribe, of course, and a nomadic tribe is basically a mobile village, and a village is a self-sustaining society with different roles that benefit the community — hunters, craftsmen, mystics and elders. Yank the focus back towards that and as long as you provide some cool events, the rest takes care of itself.
New Bloods learning from their tutors, Gosh’kar/Thur’ruk telling tales and performing everyday rituals, Nag’Ogar/Rrosh-tul hunting and crafting armor/weapons, Gul’thauk/Varog’Gor policing the tribe and taking care of threats inside and outside, and the Chieftain at the head of the whole society as its figurehead and leader.
Just need to give people a reason to care and invest themselves, ICly and OOCly. What they do should feel like it matters -- while something may be called a rank, a helpful way to look at it is a 'job'. Give everyone a job and some theoretical and practical thing to do in between events, and it starts to feel like an IC community.
To use the Path of Strength as an example, since a common refrain in the past has been that they have nothing to do outside of battle: any tribal society’s fighting force are warriors during war and hunters during peace — ergo they should be in charge of feeding, clothing, arming and supplying the tribe. That’s basically the easiest RP there is, because everyone needs to eat, wear things, wield weapons and use things.
The other two paths have even more obvious and applicable non-combat roles. The Path of Cunning are basically scouts, spies and police. You could give them a diplomacy role too, as double-agents gathering intelligence. The Path of Wisdom are your priests, scholars and lorekeepers.
Above all, I think the guild just needs to remember its concept and bring that to life in as full and immersive a way as possible. A successful, practical concept is a self-sustaining entity. If you make people feel like something interesting and fun is happening, they will log on and they will participate.
At present, this has been changed to a trial rank, three junior ranks with five strata of sub-ranks each with three unique names (fifteen total, plus the generalised form, for twenty new sub-ranks), the lower sub-ranks not strictly considered officially part of said junior rank, and the penultimate highest junior sub-ranks having their own sub-sub-rank of champion, with forty-three separate but multi-choice sub-sub-sub-ranks, which are all nominally voluntary but encouraged, along with two separate currency grinds with exchange rates!
Which means that the tribe’s structure has went from six distinct concepts along three paths to sixty-six separate concepts. I fail to see how we can ever meaningfully depict this with a guild whose active membership rarely exceeds twenty online players even during good times — and indeed, the last time the officer-team spoke on rank reform, it was to reduce the number of ranks, rather than increase them by a factor of ten.
I don’t want to be funny, but I’m a reasonably intelligent person. I’m not a genius, and my memory’s not great, but I consider myself at least average. I’ve been a strong believer in keeping things neat and simple. How do you possibly expect people to remember all of this without constant reference to various explanatory threads? Tribal societies were formed of large overlapping professional bounds, such as ‘the hunters/warriors’, or ‘the wisemen’. I’m afraid that the new structure is grossly inefficient, and certainly a case of less equalling more.
I guess a helpful way of thinking about it is thinking about what you would do if OotRB was a new guild you were launching, instead of something that's been going along for a decade. Focus on what you think the guild should be, then think about how to make that a reality.
Furthermore, it’s natural that when coming up with over fifty new names, they’re not going to all be original or distinct. Yet there’s no obvious logical flow in particular between the various sub-rank and sub-sub-rank names. For instance:
- Why is a seer a rank rather than a specialisation, given that it specifically refers to someone with supernatural talent for augury, not someone who grinded 40 of a currency?
- Ditto for keeper and caller, which are not ranks but distinct talents. Why is a keeper above a caller? Why is a keeper below a seer? They could realistically come in any order and make the same amount of sense.
- Shadow and Reaver are even worse, because of their sheer generic nature.
The very first place to cut out the bloat would be here, given the purely arbitrary nature of many of these labels, and the fact that they seemingly overwrite the genericised sub-ranks of Oathbound, Seeker, Proven and Chosen, which don’t seem to have any particular descriptive use and could just as easily be filled with numbers one through four.
In addition, this new structure is ostensibly designed to increase initiative, but in multiple regards, it only restricts opportunity until you’ve grinded enough currency. Some questions:
1- Why do you have to grind 60 Fangs (or complete on average 30 missions!) before you can lead a warband, if the goal is to enable more people to use their initiative?
2- Why does the Alpha, the right-hand of an Elder, need his own right-hand of a Champion? And what do they even do in any meaningful sense, in a guild with 20 people in it at the best of times?
3- Why do you have to ‘earn’ a member spotlight? Why not take a moment to highlight a newer member making a splash, or otherwise ask people to volunteer instead of locking it behind a 40-fang grind?
I’m afraidI don't mean to take the words out of your mouth, but I think this is where the core of the problem might lie. The impression that I'm getting is that you've become afraid of change - be it in the tribe's structure or otherwise. Now as I said before, I realize full well that these changes are indeed a lot to swallow at once. I completely agree with you in that. We originally hadn't even intended on changing the in-game ranks to the new ones right away, just to experiment around with it first. But in the end, going all-out seemed the better option to at least make sure that everything would be made as clear as possible in the end, rather than having some vague ranks floating around in the old rank structure. That might make things a bit challenging right now, but as soon as everyone -has- gotten used to things, it should hopefully make things a lot smoother. As for newcomers who are just getting acquainted with the system? You earn your New Blood Marks, you choose your Path, and then you earn Fangs through random RP for special rewards within that Path if you have any interest in climbing the rank ladder. It's as simple as that. One isn't going to be forced to advance or forced to choose a specialization if they don't care for it or forced to care about earning Fangs at all.
These few snippets each resemble some of the thoughts that went into this new prestige rank system (which I also explained to you in quite some detail in that same Skype chat, which you didn't seem as overwhelmingly opposed to at the time).
I'll start off by saying that it feels like you seem to be needlessly complicating things with your explanation here just to try and prove your point since at the core of it all, it honestly isn't all that complicated. Whether something is complicated or not is probably a subjective matter, but I get the feeling that the main problem here is that these are too many ranks -in a single change-, rather than altogether.
There are, indeed, a great many changes when one looks only at the number of ranks that have been added. However, bear in mind that someone won't have to learn each and every rank from the top of his head. Someone entering the Path of Strength has little reason to be forced to know every single tier of the Path of Wisdom, and vice versa.
If I were to make a new tribal guild right now, these would be some of the things I would implement. A self-sufficient means for player interactions (the notice board) and a rank system that allows people to keep on longing for more and gives incentive to RP (prestige ranks). The main point to note about the latter is that one isn't -required- to climb it if they don't want to.
This is a question that could be asked for pretty much -any- (RP) guild out there. Why do they have the naming structure that they have? Why does "Legionnaire" come before "Veteran" in some guilds, even though the one might just as easily imply the other in a historical sense? Because you need to build structure somehow.
2. I'm not sure where you got this idea from, but the Alpha does not have a right hand in the Chosen rank. The Alpha is the only right hand here.
barely two weeks ago, there were hardly any people online whatsoever. Compared to zero people online two weeks ago, we've had several people online today before it was even "event prime time”.
I don't mean to take the words out of your mouth, but I think this is where the core of the problem might lie. The impression that I'm getting is that you've become afraid of change - be it in the tribe's structure or otherwise.
Needlessly complicating things? Not any more than is already apparent in the new structure, to be honest. Sixty-six is a larger number than six, in terms of delineating the Path structure. If you must retain things the way they are now, I feel like the path-specific sub-ranks are simply unhelpful and confusing — in the quest for giving each path its own identity, the tribe as an entity becomes significantly more complex and muddled.
That would be specifically because the scope of just how much was being added was unclear. At the time we spoke, you were proposing a three-tier prestige system, of which one would be Oathbound and the final would be Alpha (both of which already existed to a degree).
Needlessly complicating things? Not any more than is already apparent in the new structure, to be honest. Sixty-six is a larger number than six, in terms of delineating the Path structure. If you must retain things the way they are now, I feel like the path-specific sub-ranks are simply unhelpful and confusing — in the quest for giving each path its own identity, the tribe as an entity becomes significantly more complex and muddled.
This, for instance, is not a selling point. Graduating from a structure everybody understood in full, to one so complicated that members of one part of the tribe can simply shrug at the complexity, because they probably don’t need to know anyway, is not an upgrade by any sense of the word. Especially from an IC standpoint of being able to easily identify a chain of command in the field of battle or other conflicts.
This could naturally be said for the last rank structure, so it doesn’t have any specific bearing, positive or negative.
Is it truly so unreasonable to want similar attention to detail and in-universe logic with any new ranks, rather than just saying “why not?” and pointing to the often inane rank-structures of other guilds.
Well, what do the Chosen do? I don’t understand. It doesn’t seem like they exist for any IC or OOC reason other than to have an additional rung of the ladder, while downgrading the Alpha competition notion down one rung.
It’s difficult to credit a certain change for increasing activity even before said change was announced. Activity fluctuates up and down, and for a range of reasons, including event quality, plot relevance, seasonal variances, and in particular officer activity, which has most certainly picked up the last fortnight in spirit. There are ways to kick things into gear without restructuring everything,
I don’t want to be funny, but mischaracterising me as being afraid of change? The officer forum is littered with my various brainstorms for new rank structures, and I specifically proposed many of the recent-ish rank changes such as Gul’thauk, Alpha and Marks of the Red Blade.
The only difference is that I didn’t press forward with a change if it wasn’t better than the existing system. Change for change’s sake, or just to “shake things up” as you said, isn’t a universal positive. Furthermore as I noted, many of these changes involved reducing ranks rather than increasing them tenfold — so is it truly shocking to imagine I might disagree?
I just thought it'd be a cool idea - A written script can be made beforehand, and perhaps be handed out to whoever volunteers to lead it, incase the officer won't be able to do it themselves :3
A written script can be made beforehand
I have a suggestion, that hopefully could help the officer team, in case it gets accepted; Us "Senior" officers, (those interested anyway) could make a sort of chat night as well, to help come up with fresh new ideas for our RP experiences. I've not spoken with anyone about this yet, but the idea has been in my mind for a few days now. I'm not saying that the senior ranks should feel obligated to do this, but I have some feeling it might be a good idea, if people would want in on it. Might loosen up the weight of responsibility on the officer team a little then.
Thoughts? Opinions?
first and foremost, this might just be a personal something from my end, but if it is the idea that officers are at this chat night, it'll be yet another night that will have to be made free (Beyond the weekly OOC officer meeting and the standard event nights) and I personally don't have the luxury to do so.
Secondly, we have a Skype group dedicated for everything involving events and is meant for our senior members. It's a skype group that you were part of until you left it a while back. So instead of dedicating yet another night to brainstorming for plots and what not, I think the Skype chat that has been dedicated to this idea to let it works its wonders if any of the senior members do have anything they'd like to pitch in the way of events and plots.
Having said that, do please keep on voting if you haven't already! (and of course, refrain from double-voting) As it stands now, the score is running very equal, so it's increasingly difficult to come to a sound conclusion just yet.
So, if you haven't already, take a look at the sub-ranks page here (http://orcsoftheredblade.com/forum/index.php?topic=4265.0) and when you've done that, please cast your vote in the poll right here (http://www.strawpoll.me/10302296)! Every single vote counts, so make sure to leave yours!