Suggestions and Feedback

[Nosh'marak]

Im going to play devils advocate here, because while you know full well what I think you all do is fantastic, I have a few issues about this campaign (Which I can actually comment on because i've been here for every event, yay!) that im going to raise. I'll try not to be harsh because its a lot of work gone into it; But i won' dance around any points at the same time.

The Plot: I think the plot had great potential. I loved the survival aspects and the maddening whispers in the area referencing that a certain something wasn't entirely defeated as was first thought back in WOTLK. I loved the environmental updates and I loved the general theme of the place and not knowing where we are. I disliked that some folks acted like they knew where we were - But that's out of our hands, and its down to those individuals to have a suspension of disbelief and go along with the plot otherwise it ruins things. I could genuinely have had a survival plot as we made out way out of Storm Peaks, with the whispers as an undertone and scene setting in the background as simply another thing to escape from (We've barely any gear, food is limited and we're all struggling to sleep as it is.) Before we found civilization and then went on to find this Dwarf warband and take them out for good.

Heres what I don't like: Why on earth are we so driven to take out the source of these whispers when it's clear that the further away we are - We wont hear them. We're struggling for food and supplies. We're overtired, struggling to sleep and frankly in some of the worst conditions we will ever face and we're delving into Ulduar and the surrounding areas to stamp out whatever source is offering these whispers, which in real terms is going to be a being of some formidable power if im perfectly honest. It makes such little sense for a Tribe that I consider to be quite logical in it's actions. We could move out, get our bearings. Find some maps from a nearby town in Grizzly/Howling Fjord or get some local intel. Recharge up and then head back in for the final confrontation; Yet we're needlessly I feel trying to struggle against a foe we could easily come back to and take out when we're in a better place. It feels strange, and Makaroth shared the same view; We never heard any whispers before we got here why don't we just leave instead of taking the fight when the odds are stacked against us? I've deliberately stopped mentioning it IC'ly because I feel all it will do is create more tension without changing anything - As I can't expect the plot to just get dropped and be done with it; Thats not fair on anyone at all, mostly the guys involved creating this plot.

I feel it's tarnished the experience a little. I know the Tribe has never been to Ulduar, and it's a cool place to incorporate into the storyline, and probably would be an extremely awesome story-arc; But the current conditions we face I can't get past the fact it just feels like lunacy to go against this foe when we're struggling to stay alive.

As for Skidderbeard; I could go on about how we could have jumped on the Goblin when he said we were going to fly into a storm; But we needed a way to crash the zeppelin, so I can suspend disbelief for that one - I can't think how the Tribe would ever trust the character again though.

What happens next?: For me, I absolutely despise Christmas. I am bah humbug in every sense of the word, which I won't rant about here because now's not the time (Don't ask me unless you want your ears blown off in an anti-Christmas hate rant.) I personally wouldn't mind staying in Conquest Hold and just having some down-time. I'll be online all over the Christmas period and willing to hold some mini-events and the like (Hunts, game nights; things like that) for anyone who does want to come online but i'd be apprehensive about heading back to Razor Hill just for the sake of RP and to go and mingle; As I feel it'd tarnish the immersion somewhat of Northrend. Would also give me a chance to get through the massive Steam library I have of games i've never played on nights where it's quiet and nobody's on (Christmas day anyway? I'll be playing Fallout 4) - But thats not a priority of course.

Ideas: I realize this isn't for everyone - But I love PvE roll emote battles. I'd love to see more, but I know that there are some horrible memories of hours and hours of rolling battles floating around, plus I know there's a large consensus that doesn't like roll battles in PvE situations. I'd personally love to implement full detailed character sheets for us to fill out, DnD style with lots of different customization options; Again I fear i'm probably dreaming here - But i'd happily help create such a thing if it came to fruition.

I hope that at least offers a critical but fair viewpoint. I do love all the work you do and you know I always want to help out whenever I can. I love this Tribe, and I'll always want to try and improve things with you all.

Much love my cherubs.

Agreed. Well said, Maka!

[Karak Stormsong]

I liek this quest chain, actually. BUT THAT'S NOT CRITICISM YOU CAN USE SO LET'S GET MEAN.

Heres what I don't like: Why on earth are we so driven to take out the source of these whispers when it's clear that the further away we are - We wont hear them. We're struggling for food and supplies. We're overtired, struggling to sleep and frankly in some of the worst conditions we will ever face and we're delving into Ulduar and the surrounding areas to stamp out whatever source is offering these whispers, which in real terms is going to be a being of some formidable power if im perfectly honest. It makes such little sense for a Tribe that I consider to be quite logical in it's actions. We could move out, get our bearings. Find some maps from a nearby town in Grizzly/Howling Fjord or get some local intel. Recharge up and then head back in for the final confrontation; Yet we're needlessly I feel trying to struggle against a foe we could easily come back to and take out when we're in a better place. It feels strange, and Makaroth shared the same view; We never heard any whispers before we got here why don't we just leave instead of taking the fight when the odds are stacked against us? I've deliberately stopped mentioning it IC'ly because I feel all it will do is create more tension without changing anything - As I can't expect the plot to just get dropped and be done with it; Thats not fair on anyone at all, mostly the guys involved creating this plot.

While I agree in context, I think this can very easily be addressed IC by forcing a few of the leaders/officers into mind control, thus giving people a reason to actually stay. How you do this without being railroady though, I cannot say as obviously, and the rule of tabletop games is "If you plan for A, B and C, the player will do '7'" so people will always want to go do something else based on what their character thinks.

I also love them weather updates, however I think there needs to be a broader account taken into those in which weather and supplies don't count, i.e. deathwalkers and mages [Pff, who needs to hunt? /conjure food]. Other classes, such as shamans and hunter would likewise be less in danger. I fully realise I'm cheesing it by going 'lolmagic' in this instance but the point of a career mage or death knight is that is basically the point of your class. Siyah's is IC a 'support' caster so can quite happily fudge most of the environmental effects himself and have a valid IC to do so that isn't god-mode mary sueism. (or at least, I hope). Now obviously I'm not saying that survival aspects are trivial, but it should be worth highlighting that WoW is a high fantasy world, many members of the tribe have skills or abilities that can easily overcome most obstacles. A deathknight could laugh at the storm. The hunter can provide for the tribe himself. The shaman can plea to the weather for respite. The mage and warlock are nothing if not versatile. Even at our most mundane we are Player Characters and thus have far more agency than a 'real world' person in a similar situation.

Again how to 'solve' this without railroading is... probably something that needs to be disccused with a player directly, which would be a mammoth task in itself. I also realise I say all this while playing a bishonen speshul snowflake freak with undefined powers who's prime directive is to speak in obscure occult and folklore references so how I approach a situation IC is not going to be the same as one of the muggles of the tribe.

I also really like /roll events or events with a genuine 'failure' or 'danger' state. How one fails at a task is just as valid, if not more so than vitory, a way for character development. [As anyone who's taken one of Siyah's cards can probably say  ]. The issue we've had so far with these is that a lot of people turn up which can really bog people down. Don't use bloodied blades though, golly. The generic /roll 40+ to succeed, 'take as much damage as you want' hosted by a party DM works really, really well and allows players to do what their character would do - i.e. having played support casters for two years now with both Siyah and Nem it's very hard to do anything but attack (can't barrier? Can't slow or debuff?) as it's never taken into account in bloodied blades and impossible to arbitrate properly in large events.

[Okiba]

I've been nudged to throw in some cents or three for help, and to give my impression of things. I'll go by some previously stated points and then throw out a few of my own...

Heres what I don't like: Why on earth are we so driven to take out the source of these whispers when it's clear that the further away we are - We wont hear them. We're struggling for food and supplies. We're overtired, struggling to sleep and frankly in some of the worst conditions we will ever face and we're delving into Ulduar and the surrounding areas to stamp out whatever source is offering these whispers, which in real terms is going to be a being of some formidable power if im perfectly honest. It makes such little sense for a Tribe that I consider to be quite logical in it's actions. We could move out, get our bearings. Find some maps from a nearby town in Grizzly/Howling Fjord or get some local intel. Recharge up and then head back in for the final confrontation; Yet we're needlessly I feel trying to struggle against a foe we could easily come back to and take out when we're in a better place. It feels strange, and Makaroth shared the same view;

1) We don't leave then come back because of a multitude of ooc reasons. Namely christmas is coming, we don't have time for back and forth antics. on a more IC level, we don't know how to get down IC, nor do we entirely know if we would get back in time to stem the problem again. it too could recuperate.

2) You are Orcs. What kind of Orc lets hunger or fear dictate actions? You headbutt the problem until it goes away, because thats what Orcs do. Yes, nobody heard whispers until we all got here, but it would be reckless and foolish to leave without dealing with the problem.

As for Skidderbeard; I could go on about how we could have jumped on the Goblin when he said we were going to fly into a storm; But we needed a way to crash the zeppelin, so I can suspend disbelief for that one - I can't think how the Tribe would ever trust the character again though.

The goblin is for comic relief, and the occasional punching bag. a familiar travelling face used by Gridish as a plot tool, namely an unreliable 'captain' that woudl explain a crash, or five. yes we could all be super serious and not use him again, but wheres the fun in that?

Ideas: I realize this isn't for everyone - But I love PvE roll emote battles. I'd love to see more, but I know that there are some horrible memories of hours and hours of rolling battles floating around, plus I know there's a large consensus that doesn't like roll battles in PvE situations. I'd personally love to implement full detailed character sheets for us to fill out, DnD style with lots of different customization options; Again I fear i'm probably dreaming here - But i'd happily help create such a thing if it came to fruition.

I hate Bloodied blades. I love Rarg, but bringing that into the guild/RP was just -stupid-, Hated every moment of it from top to bottom. I also have a lot of bad experience with DM'ing, it can be slow, tedious, extremely boring and frankly off-putting. I despite long winded, over thought out encounters that are only meant to grind your character into pulp... all you do is spend weeks with a wounded/maimed character unable to do anything but "rest". No, what I do enjoy is simple, fast paced Dm'ing... as siyah has mentioned and I will go on to now...

The generic /roll 40+ to suceed, 'take as much damage as you want' hosted by a party DM works really, really well and allows players to do what their character would do - i.e. having played support casters for two years now with both Siyah and Nem it's very ahrd to do anything but attack (can't barrier? Can't slow or debuff?) as it's never taken into account in bloodied blades and impossible to arbitrate probably in large events.

This, the DM system i showed Grid and used with some others in the past does exactly that. The player decides how much/if they get hurt, but the DM decides how soon the monster/mobs die based on how well the team work together and compliment/use skills. I can sow it to you at a later date maka, it would probably be right up your street.

Anyhow, overall i'm enjoying this plot. its fun and new, which is what you want really, keep it up Gridish!

in other matters, christmas... christmas is a wind down time for me, but it can also hurt a guild a lot. And OoTRB tends to very often be quiet over christmas. However, for the time I should be on until after near year, I look forward to some stuff in conquest hold in general.

Inevitable as that guild wide inactivity be is, I would suggest come the new year you all go back to kalimdor and go on a tour of some kind across the continent doing more generic horde stuff, try to make yourself seen and interact with other guilds. From what I read and understand, guilds that isolate themselves on AD for long/continual periods seldom do well or enjoy regular/active prosperity. This is because people seem to enjoy cross-guild RP a lot more, and somewhat expect it.

Anyhow, thats my 2 cents, thanks for the event/plot so far Grid!

[Azolg]

Alright, i'll offer some counter-points because i'd disagree completely with what you've countered mine with Kroggles m'love.

1) We don't leave then come back because of a multitude of ooc reasons. Namely christmas is coming, we don't have time for back and forth antics. on a more IC level, we don't know how to get down IC, nor do we entirely know if we would get back in time to stem the problem again. it too could recuperate.

2) You are Orcs. What kind of Orc lets hunger or fear dictate actions? You headbutt the problem until it goes away, because thats what Orcs do. Yes, nobody heard whispers until we all got here, but it would be reckless and foolish to leave without dealing with the problem.

1) Of course I know the OOC reasons; but even still I cant shake the feeling that logic would dictate that it'd be better to focus our efforts on finding civilization or some part of the Horde rather than chasing a foe we really know nothing about, gathering our strength again and attacking once more with intel and resources behind us.

2) Thats a pretty sweeping generalizing statement to make. I'd consider this pretty dire circumstances and only a reckless fool takes their chances in dire circumstances. Cunning and intellect are also part of Orc's psyche, and retreat sometimes offers the best stratagem - Orcs are capable of using strategy, we're not all raging berserkers.

The goblin is for comic relief, and the occasional punching bag. a familiar travelling face used by Gridish as a plot tool, namely an unreliable 'captain' that woudl explain a crash, or five. yes we could all be super serious and not use him again, but wheres the fun in that?

I personally don't think comic relief extends to crashing and endangering the lives of the Tribe is all. I get comic relief characters, but Skidderbeard i'm not a fan of. Particularly trusting him with the rope bridge -after- the crash.

I hate Bloodied blades. I love Rarg, but bringing that into the guild/RP was just -stupid-, Hated every moment of it from top to bottom. I also have a lot of bad experience with DM'ing, it can be slow, tedious, extremely boring and frankly off-putting. I despite long winded, over thought out encounters that are only meant to grind your character into pulp... all you do is spend weeks with a wounded/maimed character unable to do anything but "rest". No, what I do enjoy is simple, fast paced Dm'ing... as siyah has mentioned and I will go on to now...

I think this is a simple difference of enjoyments, but i'd be interested in learning more about this system at some point.

[Kozgugore]

While I've been unable to commit as much time as I would have wanted to attending events in this particular campaign and I therefore can't speak on behalf of the organizer, I can very well imagine retreating to regain our senses for a period of time would have drawn out the plot far too long and wide. It wouldn't be the first (and certainly not the last) time that an IC decision is made, be it for the sake of the plot or otherwise, that doesn't make any sense but is necessitated for OOC reasons. It would quite possibly have taken far too long and it would have removed any manner of climax from the plot. Once again, I'm not sure if that was actually the intention or there was another reason to it, but it seems like a fair logic to me.

As for our next course of action (even though I don't expect my busy period to end any time soon and I'll certainly be gone for Christmas and new years), you know my opinion on that. Though I can safely say I see eye to eye with Krogon in regards to AD and cross-guild interaction.

Edit: Posted while I didn't see the above post yet. Though in my opinion, the point remains that you sometimes have to go with the IC flow for the sake of some OOC convenience. Not -too- much either of course, but I do believe things would have gotten dragged out too much.

[Okiba]

While I've been unable to commit as much time as I would have wanted to attending events in this particular campaign and I therefore can't speak on behalf of the organizer, I can very well imagine retreating to regain our senses for a period of time would have drawn out the plot far too long and wide. It wouldn't be the first (and certainly not the last) time that an IC decision is made, be it for the sake of the plot or otherwise, that doesn't make any sense but is necessitated for OOC reasons. It would quite possibly have taken far too long and it would have removed any manner of climax from the plot. Once again, I'm not sure if that was actually the intention or there was another reason to it, but it seems like a fair logic to me.

As for our next course of action (even though I don't expect my busy period to end any time soon and I'll certainly be gone for Christmas and new years), you know my opinion on that. Though I can safely say I see eye to eye with Krogon in regards to AD and cross-guild interaction.

Edit: Posted while I didn't see the above post yet. Though in my opinion, the point remains that you sometimes have to go with the IC flow for the sake of some OOC convenience. Not -too- much either of course, but I do believe things would have gotten dragged out too much.

Wait what, we see eye to eye? thats not a typo? yee gods!

[Kozgugore]

It's not entirely rare - I just rarely go out of my way to admit it!

[Umaua]

I have so far enjoyed the events even if I am a fan of rolled and DMed events. I also always cringe when an event takes a turn of the most illogical and fool hardy possible, just because we need to get to one fixed point in the story. To me these are especially cringe worthy when it finally comes clear why we had to go against any common sense to somewhere or do something, to get something or someone we didn't know was there. Makes it feel like its all decided, you are just a spectator there watching already decided fate.
I normally don't try to raise a fuss about this because I know the hard part of making these events and all the different characters and their views. But because you are playing your character which you usually are attached to....so atleast for me it breaks the immersion when I have to make a totally OOC decision for my character because a plot demands it. Go against what the character would do.
I emphasize again, I know how hard events are to make and manage. Which is why I try to keep it in mind when I do cringe.

[Gridish]

Hey everyone. I read through the feedback that has been posted so far and I would like to touch on a few things that have been mentioned so far. Before I do though, I'd like everyone to know that I -personally- asked for the feedback on the plot as it's my first one and I simply want to improve. I'm one of those people that steps up to a teacher after receiving a grade for a report and ask them: Why isn't this an A+? And if they give me the:"Oh.. no report is perfect." then I turn around and tell them: "Well, based on this report, what is not perfect on it." and I don't leave until I get my feedback. I'm a strong believer in learning from mistakes, so in no way am I trying to shoot down any feedback in this thread. I'm simply acknowledging it from my point of view and will take everything that has been posted into concideration for the next plot.

I'll be picking out some feedback that most people seemed to agree on and I'll be taking it from the root (Sorry Maka, you're the first to post, so you'll be quoted a lot.. Much bueno for your feedback <3). Anyways.. let's get started:

The Plot: I think the plot had great potential. I loved the survival aspects and the maddening whispers in the area referencing that a certain something wasn't entirely defeated as was first thought back in WOTLK. I loved the environmental updates and I loved the general theme of the place and not knowing where we are. I disliked that some folks acted like they knew where we were - But that's out of our hands, and its down to those individuals to have a suspension of disbelief and go along with the plot otherwise it ruins things. I could genuinely have had a survival plot as we made out way out of Storm Peaks, with the whispers as an undertone and scene setting in the background as simply another thing to escape from (We've barely any gear, food is limited and we're all struggling to sleep as it is.) Before we found civilization and then went on to find this Dwarf warband and take them out for good.

Heres what I don't like: Why on earth are we so driven to take out the source of these whispers when it's clear that the further away we are - We wont hear them. We're struggling for food and supplies. We're overtired, struggling to sleep and frankly in some of the worst conditions we will ever face and we're delving into Ulduar and the surrounding areas to stamp out whatever source is offering these whispers, which in real terms is going to be a being of some formidable power if im perfectly honest. It makes such little sense for a Tribe that I consider to be quite logical in it's actions. We could move out, get our bearings. Find some maps from a nearby town in Grizzly/Howling Fjord or get some local intel. Recharge up and then head back in for the final confrontation; Yet we're needlessly I feel trying to struggle against a foe we could easily come back to and take out when we're in a better place. It feels strange, and Makaroth shared the same view; We never heard any whispers before we got here why don't we just leave instead of taking the fight when the odds are stacked against us?

During the plot itself, I agree that it started feeling illogical when it came to decision making from an IC point of view. It is also why I decided to change the plot up slightly as we went along. To answer a particular question that you shared here: We never heard any whispers before we got here why don't we just leave instead of taking the fight when the odds are stacked against us?. Gridish is not used to making -the decisions for the tribe.. That's usually the Chieftain's job. He's a Rrosh'tul and his mindset is:"Mess this threat up before it becomes a larger threat."  Through out the campaign Gridish has actually spoken to several characters personally asking for advice and even though they didn't agree with his decisions, they did understand and they would follow those decisions. Of course I'm well aware that it probably had to do with the OOC thought of: It's part of the plot, so I have no choice.... but at the same time, looking from an IC point of view, if Gridish receives these types of "backup", he'd persue with what -he- thinks is the right thing to do.

Does this set Gridish up to being reckless and not a good leader? Yes.. Would I want it any different: Sure, but the option simply isn't there as the plot has played out. It's never stopped people from following Sadok into ludacris plans before and neither has it with Rarg. Mainly this all above is an excuse for IC reasoning. I do agree with you on the OOC point of view though. The plot felt very disconjointed and I do apologize for that. Hopefully my next plot will have a better flow. I certainly will be working on it.

As for Skidderbeard; I could go on about how we could have jumped on the Goblin when he said we were going to fly into a storm; But we needed a way to crash the zeppelin, so I can suspend disbelief for that one - I can't think how the Tribe would ever trust the character again though.

As Krogon stated, though not absolutely correct may I add, is that this is a "mechanic" I used to use for singular events. The reason I've let him come back in the plot is because the times that he -has- been used is because it actually is the most logical situation to use him. Also, as Gridish has stated, the Goblin is a member of the Horde, no matter how much people like him or dislike him. It would simply be a bad idea for the tribe to harm the goblin, no matter how his IQ resembles that of a braindead chimp. My apologies if you don't like the character, but it is the way how I have always done events and this time I tried to pull it into an entire plot. It doesn't necesarely have to be a returning factor ( The use of NPC's, not necesarely Skidderbeard) but it could very well be a returning factor at a given point in time. If it's your personal disliking for the character in particular, then I apologize for that. If it's the mechanic that you don't like, then I also apologize but then I'd also like to ask you if you have any replacement ideas for this mechanic.

Ideas: I realize this isn't for everyone - But I love PvE roll emote battles. I'd love to see more, but I know that there are some horrible memories of hours and hours of rolling battles floating around, plus I know there's a large consensus that doesn't like roll battles in PvE situations. I'd personally love to implement full detailed character sheets for us to fill out, DnD style with lots of different customization options; Again I fear i'm probably dreaming here - But i'd happily help create such a thing if it came to fruition.

This type of DM'ing hasn't really had too big of a place in this plot and it won't be for the final event either... Though don't worry. I do plan on having roll events in the (near) future. Soon(TM) As for the DnD style character sheets... It has been discussed before and what I could gather from it is that it's a -lot- of work. As for the work we're doing right now already is rather time consuming. If I am wrong on how much time it'll actually take to create and implement, do let me know... but I know it has been discussed in the past and hasn't been implemented for good reasons x].

Don't use bloodied blades though, golly.

I wasn't planning on it my dear Karak <3

As for all the feedback that has been given so far, I will be taking this to the OOC officer meeting that is tomorrow night so we as the officers can review the feedback and perhaps they'll have a few pointers of their own for me as well. Thank you all for the feedback so far. If there is anything else you would like to share or anyone else that would like to put their feedback up... Tomorrow isn't a deadline because as I said, I'm here to learn and to #getgud at giving you lot a great time.

[Okiba]

Good afternoon all! Let me just start by saying what I'm about to write is not intended as a harsh criticsm, Its more an attempt at a well aimed bundle of advice (if thats even within my powers of explenation, i'm notoriously incoherent....)

Primarly this feedback and suggestions I'm going to throw out in a few moments is more about the overall transition from DB's way of conducting bussiness to how things are done/going/proceeding on AD. Overall I think the Red blades have made an impression, gotten the name out and made a little bit of a mark. A good start, but I personally feel that while an impression has been made, integration has been too slow. I'll just make a few comparissons point by point...


Last few months on DB:

-The guild was large, and heavily active due to a shrinking populace, becoming a refuge of sorts for orc roleplayers. Because of this people weremore active as they had few other places to seek Orc RP.

-The guild could go anywhere it pleased for long periods in RP focuses an enjoy relatively good activity and numbers at events without any problems (aside from griefers, but thats an irrelevance). This again, was because of a smaller server population so the majority of orcs came to OoTRB and didn't venture elsewhere on alts.

-The guild also held a strong active and prominent leading position in the Horde gathering, allowing it access to numerous other events and cross guild RP.


Currently on AD:

-OoTRB has, steadily, been suffering a slow deteriation in activity. This could be down to numerous things. Ranging from the typical slumps it always has, its common and those arent to be worried over especially between expansions. But they should never be ignored. Inactivity is never a good thing, I can't and won't hazard to say specifically why its happening, because it'd be a guess, its likely numerous factors, but there are things that can be done about it (which I will explain throughout).

-Also been on several long, out the way ventures where the tribe has been away from city's and members have not been allowed to venture off and do their own thing to a great degree. While I agree immersion can be broken a little by portals/teleports/travel times, its also detrimental to a players interest to be stuck in one place all the time with no option of moving around, especially out the sticks. The current RP plot in storm peaks is an example. not only has it prevented people going elsewhere, often causing them to opt to play alts that can travel instead of their orcs, its also prevented recruitment, i think two recruits had to wait well over a week for an IC interview?

-The tribe has indeed attended Horde'mar summits, and has done a shared plot with the hand of agony. But everything else has been done alone, at its pace and away from randoms/other guilds. So again, people are opting to play alts with other guilds that can do/go where they please with more freedom. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, or that small numbers is a bad thing, but these sort of passive restrictions are unhealthy.


And now for a little bit on AD guilds...

How Guilds work on AD:

Typically, guilds (by my observations) fall into one of two brackets...

Bracket 1 - The large guilds that regularly travel around, but do so only for a week at a time, but allow free travel and have a far more relaxed recruiting policy. They tend to thrive, have large numbers and hefty activity. However, these guilds in turn have snags. They are led quite badly and are often short lived, lasting a year before drama/splitting.

Bracket 2 - The small guilds that stay in one place for long periods and few events. The spirit wolves are example. They have two events a week, 10 tauren show up for 2 hours and then nothing. Activity is dead before and beyond these evening hours on thursday and tuesday. They offer few options and contain a small, tight knit team of members who don't associate/integrate with other guilds. Most other RP'ers/guilds don't even know these groups exist, and can be found across the board in various places.


In Summary:

I personally think due to OoTRB's past, following large plot/expansion events and is nomadic lifestyle especially when coupled with its last few months on DB... is beginning to lean heavily toward the 'bracket 2' I just mentioned. I'm also aware the officer team wanted to ease into AD slowly to get their bearings and size things up, which was wise and I can't fault that. But due to some inactivity on several of their parts, this has been way, way over extended and I dare say beocming alarmingly unhealthy. I know each officer has his/her own good reasons for inactivity, it can't be helped and of course theres no 'fault' in that, but things can be done to mitigate and prevent the impact that has. Ultimately I don't really know what direction you guys want to move in anymore, its not for me to 'judge' or decide, or really have a say in, but from what I've seen and observed... the current course thats being steered is not one where a guild ultiamtely 'thrives'.

While the current Storm peaks plot has been good, its been excellent in fact i've enjoyed all the events... such plots are restrictive. I've found ymself struggling to RP between events as a 'tag along', most guild members are on alts RP'ing where they can go where they please, typically from hub to hub for the bigger interactions and the freedom.

So yes, to summarize, it is my 'opinion' that a middle ground should be sought, and swiftly. The tribe should keep its nomadic roots by all means, and travel. But these long winded, far flung disaster adventurers that lead only to seclusion and massive down time between events? nah, that has to stop. So the following is a list of my suggestions in bullet points, and then I'll follow up with a plot suggestion for thew near year and then for legion.


Suggestions:

1 - In the new year, return to kalimdor. with all due haste may I add. Set up shop in Razor hill at first and get some solid open to others events going in the surrounding area, promote middle rankd guild members organizing events on off nights (not tuesday/thursday/sunday).

2 - Still travel, but for only limited, pre-set amounts of time. The tribes been in Storm peaks for what, four, five weeks now? thats too long to be cut off. I'd recommend making a venture somewhere only two weeks long maximum, no more. otherwise an area becomes stale. So the process would be.... Travel, 1/2 weeks in area, back to core horde camp (crossroads/razor hill, orgrimmar) etc, then 1/2 weeks travel and events, then back to core horde camps, repeat. This maintains variety and allows recruitment/activity to be better maintained.

3 - A tag along initiative, a big one. Invite other guilds to follow the tribe around, and especially randoms, create a large, mobile hub. A "caravan" of sorts, thats follows the tribe. This not only promotes the guild as a whole, and orcish rp... making people consider joining, but also allows for much more random rp and encounters. This is the integration i spoke of.

4 - Start forming some more, solid alliances. Share events with others. Etc, etc... this doesn't even really deserve a bullet point but I thought i'd state and re-iterate it.


Anyhow... now for a new year 'plot'.


New year Kalimdor Tour:

The tribe goes on tour of kalimdor! spending a week (or two) at a time in each core region of the central area within the conintent. The IC aim? to secure, support and develop horde interests within its main regions. Really a going back to basics series of events, as the 'caravan' moves from area to camp, to area. But also allowing guild members to move around freely in those areas, even go back to orgrimmar as they wish, as long a they show up to 'main' events.

1 - could begin in razor hill, heading to the crossroads for a week. have some basic DM'ed events against kor'kron survirors/bandits, quilboar and harpy's, use the mobs already in place or even other things. hunt, drink and get out and about.

2 - next stop? Silverwind refuge in ashenvale, where some kind of short pvp clash with a night elf guild could occur. or even cultists/satyr and so forth, agian back to basics.

3 - On to stonetlaon mountains where tensions are potentially high between kaldorei and orcs, but after the war the land needs healing, the elements tending and oil supplies securing.

4 - Desolace calls! the horde needs its interests supporting in this barren land, and to foester good relations with the cenarion circle try's to help the grove there with some naga or cultist problems, maybe even an IC run of maraudon?

5 - Feralas beckons! plenty to do here ranging from hunting, to trecking, epxloring and even an IC run of fire maul?

6 - southern barrens, a visit to the overgrowth to battle tenacious plant monsters that threaten the whole area?

7 - Brackenwell village and dustwallow, aiding the ogres in ensuring sabotage by alliance forces doesn't overcome their defences (and small brains).

8 - back to northern barrens via rathet.


Now then, this is potentially an 8-16 weeks of RP in one big tour, with randoms, other guilds and a lot of welcoming freedom and interaction. I honestly, truelly believe this would help OoTRB down to the bones to make a real impact and to bounce back from this little slump, theres huge possibilities and options, could even visit mulgore, or tanaris and other things thrown in.

Legion plot/suggestion is is SPOILERS BECAUSE IT MAY WELL BE EXACTLY THAT, SO OPEN AND READ AT OWN DISCRETION:

Spoiler: show

Legion plot suggestion:

-The broken shore is going to be a huge, military disaster. The horde and alliance are going to be -crushed- here, Varian dies, vol'jin is missing... this is not a good/wise place to be IC. furthermore, I srongly suggest -against- beginning the expansion on the broken isles, as has been done with pandaria and draenor before it. Inevitably a visit to the islands is a great idea, but later in the expansions and as part of a greater plot.

-The tribe should, focus on fighting legion forces beyond the isles. Namely a group of dreadlords and minions, trying to cause havoc/chaos beyond the isles. perhaps even try to recover an artifact from them, like the staff of the shaman king? chase one particular 'boss' dreadlord from region to region, fight his forces, foil attempts to summon more of his minions, could visit felwood and other places for such. But allow the freedom of movement i suggested in the "kalimdor tour" stuff.

-eventually follow said boss, who fled back to his masters on the broken isles, to the broken isles! and do a short tour of the regions. keep it brief, a weektwo in each region at most, then back to orgrimmar as the plot develops.

Anyhow, those are my suggestions, and I whole heartedly hope for any criticism on these points, additions or such, thanks for reading and I hope it wasn't too long, boring or out of place of me to supply them.

[Izeira]

For the most part I agree with Krogon's post here, and I have my own problems with the guild at the moment. Mainly that during most casual events we do have like campfires or tavern meet ups. Mostly everyone seem to already have their own group to be in and mainly just stay with their mates, so people like me tend to just end up sitting there with no one really to talk to. Same with large events when we get a large group of orcs together with so many it tend to be easy to end up going with the flow and be on auto-pilot while the event plays out because of this being on Izeria feel rather dull for me, I can't seem to find a way to help move her character forward or get her more involved in the guild, plus as Krogon said. We tend to be in far off places like on top of a mountain away from other people to roleplay with, so if I log on and no orcs are about...Not much else to do but LFR, Garrison and no RP.

[Azolg]

Devils advocate time; Sorry Krogon, I like a lot of what you say but I feel im forever disagreeing with you on certain things.

-Also been on several long, out the way ventures where the tribe has been away from city's and members have not been allowed to venture off and do their own thing to a great degree. While I agree immersion can be broken a little by portals/teleports/travel times, its also detrimental to a players interest to be stuck in one place all the time with no option of moving around, especially out the sticks. The current RP plot in storm peaks is an example. not only has it prevented people going elsewhere, often causing them to opt to play alts that can travel instead of their orcs, its also prevented recruitment, i think two recruits had to wait well over a week for an IC interview?

In a word, I say tough. The Blades have always done things as immersive as we can. We've already had to make changes since coming here like reducing the way travel, such as including more fast travel and using portals more. I don't like it, but I understand it's had to be compromised already. Four weeks is hardly a long time to wait in the grand scale of things; and frankly i'd be somewhat impressed of a guild that sticks to such immersion as we do and not allow ourselves to be found and led safely out mid-campaign. I like the massive immersion we have as a guild and it's one thing i'd utterly hate to give up on. In my honest view if the recruits we're attracting are incapable of understanding that we're mid-campaign and recruitment could be difficult for that time in more conventional members it raises questions to me that are they the type of roleplayer we really want in the guild?

-The tribe has indeed attended Horde'mar summits, and has done a shared plot with the hand of agony. But everything else has been done alone, at its pace and away from randoms/other guilds. So again, people are opting to play alts with other guilds that can do/go where they please with more freedom. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, or that small numbers is a bad thing, but these sort of passive restrictions are unhealthy.

The Tribe was already in Tanaan when we came to AD I believe (I wasn't active then) And since coming back from Tanaan after killing Akesh we were either in Razor Hill, the subplot with Hand of Agony, Hallows End, then back to Razor Hill before finally coming to Storm Peaks. This is our first venture alone if I'm correct?

While the current Storm peaks plot has been good, its been excellent in fact i've enjoyed all the events... such plots are restrictive. I've found ymself struggling to RP between events as a 'tag along', most guild members are on alts RP'ing where they can go where they please, typically from hub to hub for the bigger interactions and the freedom.

I would hardly say that most members are RP'ing on Alts. In fact, a few of our active folks don't have many alts they RP outside the guild, while I understand some do. This point i'm touching on here is I feel a difficult one because I also have been on AD on and off the last two years perhaps. A lot of AD roleplayers have what I call the "Butterfly" mentality where they flit from alt to alt. I see it on AD forum posts all the time the 'This is a great idea, i'll throw an alt at this!' They want a slice of every cake but can never actually get too involved in enjoying the concept of one fantastic cake. Im not slating the mentality, I don't agree with it but it's how some people are. Thats not a problem with the Blades, thats a problem with the server.

It's also a tendency to be lazy in roleplayer; It sounds harsh but i've seen a lot of guilds come and go here. I've seen a lot of character concepts given up on because the RP isn't spoonfed. We're not an unwelcoming Tribe quite the opposite actually. We have a great bunch of folks here and we do our best to make new bloods welcome. But we cant be responsible for those with the butterfly effect. We simply continue to treat out Orcs with warm and welcoming arms; and those new bloods that start to stick around we need to keep giving them the chance to be involved and make them feel like they want to log on and Roleplay with us. I probably sound something of an elitist jerk here but I honestly am an advocate of quality over quantity.

Sometimes even us Orcs have the ability to be lazy roleplayers and focus on our bubbles. I'm referring to our first night in K3 when the two new bloods probably thought what is going on with this recruitment process. It was sloppy, and i even recall having to make an effort to include one of the Orcs (The other went AFK and we haven't see him again) The other which I managed to have some great interaction with has now race changed and left the guild to become a Goblin (And im sure it wont be long before they race change again). That's incorrect. We've also had a few other new bloods leave that simply never turned up; or arrived and sat down quietly IC and did no interaction even when prompted.

Why don't I see this as a problem? These arent the type of people I want to interact with. Roleplay is a two-way process and if i'm having to make all of the effort to interact (Which I know I do, i deliberately made Makaroth a sociable Orc so I could do this.) Then thats not a person I want to roleplay with. We can only offer so much before it gets tiring Roleplaying with somebody and if said somebody has an issue with not being included or finding it difficult to talk to Orcs then im afraid you're going to have to be sociable when Orcs interact with you to enable you an interesting person to talk to.

TL;DR: A lot of roleplayers on Argent Dawn have the "Butterfly effect" of roleplaying where they are more interested in making so many different RP concepts rather than stick to one concept and see it through to its ultimatum or have a character evolve in front of them. Some character's these people create are quiet types that don't interact much and thus they leave the guild; Thats a problem with them and not the guild.

3 - A tag along initiative, a big one. Invite other guilds to follow the tribe around, and especially randoms, create a large, mobile hub. A "caravan" of sorts, thats follows the tribe. This not only promotes the guild as a whole, and orcish rp... making people consider joining, but also allows for much more random rp and encounters. This is the integration i spoke of.

Of all your suggestions however this is the one I agree with the most. It allows us to keep our nomadic roots and not do -too- much fast travelling while still keeping us open to others, which I am all for. I just wouldn't be a fan of popping to Feralas in on event because we've only got two weeks to finish our plot there per-se.

[Kozgugore]

The discussion about staying in isolation to complete the ongoing plot or going back to provide more random RP has (as one may have deduced from the topic ongoing here thus far) been on our mind for a little while now, so suffice to say we're indeed working on that following the feedback we've received thus far as well. Exactly how we would go about things if we were to return is yet to be decided upon, though we've discussed a few possibilities so far. Suggestions like those are nonetheless always welcome, of course!

As for feeling isolated within the tribe itself like you pointed out, Tazok, I fear that is a timeless problem in any guild or society. I won't go out of my way and say that it's a problem of your own to deal with, but it's always a bit difficult to take everyone's hands and see to everyone's individual needs and desires. I believe something similar has actually been discussed somewhere on these forums before - possibly even this topic. Our members can always -try- and keep an eye out for these kind of situations, of course, but in the end, it may have to come down to a bit of self-initiative as well. It's the old action-reaction formula.

[Rhonya]

I'll make a long reply to what's been said tomorrow, I had a busy week and have people sleeping in my house (Sadok and Kogra) so that's why I've been inactive.

To the topic of inactive officers, we have five active officers. Sadok has stepped down for an undecided amount of time, Therak has left the officer team.
Ed and me have been away this week, so yeah, you had to do with Gridish, Kargnar and Koz alone. Kargnar has had a lot of issues with his computer and Koz has been very busy with irl.

Officers have a life as well as any of you, but that doesn't mean the guild is 'dying' only if we're away for a little while or finally doing our -first- plot on our own since we came to AD. Last couple of weeks events still has been 10-15 members total, which is often the amount we had on DB as well, so I'm not too worried.

Long answer tomorrow- I need sleeeeep!

[Okiba]

I'll make a long reply to what's been said tomorrow, I had a busy week and have people sleeping in my house (Sadok and Kogra) so that's why I've been inactive.

To the topic of inactive officers, we have five active officers. Sadok has stepped down for an undecided amount of time, Therak has left the officer team.
Ed and me have been away this week, so yeah, you had to do with Gridish, Kargnar and Koz alone. Kargnar has had a lot of issues with his computer and Koz has been very busy with irl.

Officers have a life as well as any of you, but that doesn't mean the guild is 'dying' only if we're away for a little while or finally doing our -first- plot on our own since we came to AD. Last couple of weeks events still has been 10-15 members total, which is often the amount we had on DB as well, so I'm not too worried.

Long answer tomorrow- I need sleeeeep!

Oh I'm definatly not criticising the activity of officers. I was more getting at things between events, so first, second third or fourth venture out... having 10/15 on an event is grand, but when nobody is online between or at any other time thats hardly endearing to either new members or current ones, especially when it 'may' have a lot to do with location and freedoms of movement.