Suggestions and Feedback

[Rhonya]

Those are the leatherworking tents, yes.. Sadly they only last a few minutes, so you'd be -constantly- putting them up anew.

[Sadok]

Bumping this as a reminder that it still exists!

We want to hear your feedback and suggestions about all aspects of the OOC and IC OotRB experience, from events to guild relations to our rank structure.

So if you have ideas, post 'em here and we'll make sure all feedback gets a response.

[Okiba]

While I'm quite happy with the guild as it presently stands, I do have two small things that have floated around my mind of late.

Though the first is most likely a widely thought of/noted thing, I'll give it a mention regardless. When it comes to diplomacy I've always found it bizzare that we try to force relations with those that threaten/try to kill us. Just seems odd, but eh.

As for the second and more main thing...  Well its a case of IC seeping into OOC. Over the years i've noticed that when a Red blade members fudges up IC, be it misbheaviour of one kind or another, the go to punishment is always or at least seems to be demotion. Now don't get me wrong, its a logical punishment, but it has several ooc problems coupled to it. For one, those who suffer demotions seem to lose OOC motivation/decrease in activity as their progression in the guild is stubbed or reversed. This I feel is undesireable and I think demotions should be moved to a more 'near last resort' option, and instead a more solid range of actual punishments... like lashes, extra duty's, hard labour, latrine pit digging/filling/cleaning would do much better. This would create more RP, but be less likely to put a player off.

That said and done, Demotions do have their time and place, but I really do think we leap at that option far too eagerly. Its not an urgent problem, but its certainly a subtle background snag we have had for a long while.

Anyhow, thats my 2 cents!

[Groshnok]

I too would like to see some alternative punishments, could create some interesting RP.

[Sadok]

Thanks for the feedback thus far! I'll try to respond to everything as much as I'm able -- the intent isn't to simply put down any suggestions, but rather to explain a little why things are done as they are presently, with a view to opening up a dialogue about a third way somewhere between the suggestion and the status quo.

Though the first is most likely a widely thought of/noted thing, I'll give it a mention regardless. When it comes to diplomacy I've always found it bizzare that we try to force relations with those that threaten/try to kill us. Just seems odd, but eh.

Do you have any specific examples in mind? I'm guessing you probably have stuff like Moneyfix or the Blood Wolves in your head, but I'll just give a more generic answer for now.

We do belong to a Horde RP community, in both an IC and OOC sense, and it's for the collective benefit of all those in that community that we form together for cross-guild relations, be that cultural festivals like Kosh'harg or more intricate affairs like campaigns.

Obviously, nearly all of RP is founded on character conflict (be that discussion, arguments or actual violence), and we regularly interact with characters and guilds whose IC philosophies jar with our own and lead to the likes of threats and violence. I think there's a balance to be struck somewhere between being 'forgiving' of the past and not coming across as idiots who don't learn from their mistakes, and I'm not sure if we've struck it yet.

For what it's worth, we've went through a phase of a couple of months post-WoD where we've been a little more isolationist for the sake of breathing room, and I believe Koz is planning on heading an effort to recast the Horde Gathering in a more decentralised, amiable fashion -- aiding each other on a 'supply and demand' basis, running meetings with fewer representatives with a diplomatic rather than military bent, and having a neutral moderator keeping people in check each session while staying out of the discussion (like a parliamentary speaker).

I don't know if that conception of the Gathering will make it out of blueprint stage, or whether it'll work in execution. But we are actively trying to consider how to make inter-guild relations work while avoiding some of the pitfalls of the past, for the benefit of everybody's collective RP experience.

As for the second and more main thing...  Well its a case of IC seeping into OOC. Over the years i've noticed that when a Red blade members fudges up IC, be it misbheaviour of one kind or another, the go to punishment is always or at least seems to be demotion. Now don't get me wrong, its a logical punishment, but it has several ooc problems coupled to it. For one, those who suffer demotions seem to lose OOC motivation/decrease in activity as their progression in the guild is stubbed or reversed. This I feel is undesireable and I think demotions should be moved to a more 'near last resort' option, and instead a more solid range of actual punishments... like lashes, extra duty's, hard labour, latrine pit digging/filling/cleaning would do much better. This would create more RP, but be less likely to put a player off.

That said and done, Demotions do have their time and place, but I really do think we leap at that option far too eagerly. Its not an urgent problem, but its certainly a subtle background snag we have had for a long while.

I can only speak for myself, but I've always approached demotions as a last resort myself -- certainly, Sadok will be quick to hand out warnings and cautions whenever an orc acts inappropriately for their station within the tribe, but it takes a bit more to nudge him over the line into actually demoting an orc. I am aware that other officers have a less tolerant view dependent on the situation though.

The question of demotion seems to be tied up with discipline and tribal duties, and I do want to emphasise that OotRB is predominantly a tribal society guild rather than strictly a warband -- so while martial punishments like latrine-duty and hard labour may make sense for soldiers, there is the question about whether that would be inappropriate in a non-military context.

Demotions from the middling ranks (Nag'Ogar/Gosh'kar/Gul'thauk) tend to be done because those positions entail a certain basic competency and responsibility, or more simply, trust is placed in those orcs. When they continually abuse that trust through irresponsible behaviour or incompetent execution of duties, demotion is only natural.

The question of Oathbreaking is more difficult, because the Oath of Blood isn't some document of law with subclauses that orcs agree to, but a more vague pledge of loyalty to the tribe's values -- so in a lot of cases, the claim of whether an orc has broken that Oath is ultimately subjective (unless they're doing something irredeemably evil like eating babies).

I have to say, I share your ultimate concern about demotions leading to lack of OOC motivation, because it generally takes a far shorter period of time to 'lose' a rank than to train (or retrain) as one, because between all the tasks and such, it's far harder than ever to actually attain a rank in the guild.

I guess I'll end my reply by asking two questions of my own, both for Krogon, Groshnok, and anyone else to answer:

1- Do you think lashings and the like are appropriate within the culture of a tribe? And if not, do you have any ideas about more suitable punishments that would fall short of demotion?

2- Do you think too much is asked of orcs wanting to become Nag'Ogar/Gosh'kar/Gul'thauk, and do you have any suggestions about how the tribe structure and training might be reformed accordingly?

[Okiba]

Thanks for the feedback thus far! I'll try to respond to everything as much as I'm able -- the intent isn't to simply put down any suggestions, but rather to explain a little why things are done as they are presently, with a view to opening up a dialogue about a third way somewhere between the suggestion and the status quo.

Though the first is most likely a widely thought of/noted thing, I'll give it a mention regardless. When it comes to diplomacy I've always found it bizzare that we try to force relations with those that threaten/try to kill us. Just seems odd, but eh.

Do you have any specific examples in mind? I'm guessing you probably have stuff like Moneyfix or the Blood Wolves in your head, but I'll just give a more generic answer for now.

We do belong to a Horde RP community, in both an IC and OOC sense, and it's for the collective benefit of all those in that community that we form together for cross-guild relations, be that cultural festivals like Kosh'harg or more intricate affairs like campaigns.

Obviously, nearly all of RP is founded on character conflict (be that discussion, arguments or actual violence), and we regularly interact with characters and guilds whose IC philosophies jar with our own and lead to the likes of threats and violence. I think there's a balance to be struck somewhere between being 'forgiving' of the past and not coming across as idiots who don't learn from their mistakes, and I'm not sure if we've struck it yet.

For what it's worth, we've went through a phase of a couple of months post-WoD where we've been a little more isolationist for the sake of breathing room, and I believe Koz is planning on heading an effort to recast the Horde Gathering in a more decentralised, amiable fashion -- aiding each other on a 'supply and demand' basis, running meetings with fewer representatives with a diplomatic rather than military bent, and having a neutral moderator keeping people in check each session while staying out of the discussion (like a parliamentary speaker).

I don't know if that conception of the Gathering will make it out of blueprint stage, or whether it'll work in execution. But we are actively trying to consider how to make inter-guild relations work while avoiding some of the pitfalls of the past, for the benefit of everybody's collective RP experience.

As for the second and more main thing...  Well its a case of IC seeping into OOC. Over the years i've noticed that when a Red blade members fudges up IC, be it misbheaviour of one kind or another, the go to punishment is always or at least seems to be demotion. Now don't get me wrong, its a logical punishment, but it has several ooc problems coupled to it. For one, those who suffer demotions seem to lose OOC motivation/decrease in activity as their progression in the guild is stubbed or reversed. This I feel is undesireable and I think demotions should be moved to a more 'near last resort' option, and instead a more solid range of actual punishments... like lashes, extra duty's, hard labour, latrine pit digging/filling/cleaning would do much better. This would create more RP, but be less likely to put a player off.

That said and done, Demotions do have their time and place, but I really do think we leap at that option far too eagerly. Its not an urgent problem, but its certainly a subtle background snag we have had for a long while.

I can only speak for myself, but I've always approached demotions as a last resort myself -- certainly, Sadok will be quick to hand out warnings and cautions whenever an orc acts inappropriately for their station within the tribe, but it takes a bit more to nudge him over the line into actually demoting an orc. I am aware that other officers have a less tolerant view dependent on the situation though.

The question of demotion seems to be tied up with discipline and tribal duties, and I do want to emphasise that OotRB is predominantly a tribal society guild rather than strictly a warband -- so while martial punishments like latrine-duty and hard labour may make sense for soldiers, there is the question about whether that would be inappropriate in a non-military context.

Demotions from the middling ranks (Nag'Ogar/Gosh'kar/Gul'thauk) tend to be done because those positions entail a certain basic competency and responsibility, or more simply, trust is placed in those orcs. When they continually abuse that trust through irresponsible behaviour or incompetent execution of duties, demotion is only natural.

The question of Oathbreaking is more difficult, because the Oath of Blood isn't some document of law with subclauses that orcs agree to, but a more vague pledge of loyalty to the tribe's values -- so in a lot of cases, the claim of whether an orc has broken that Oath is ultimately subjective (unless they're doing something irredeemably evil like eating babies).

I have to say, I share your ultimate concern about demotions leading to lack of OOC motivation, because it generally takes a far shorter period of time to 'lose' a rank than to train (or retrain) as one, because between all the tasks and such, it's far harder than ever to actually attain a rank in the guild.

I guess I'll end my reply by asking two questions of my own, both for Krogon, Groshnok, and anyone else to answer:

1- Do you think lashings and the like are appropriate within the culture of a tribe? And if not, do you have any ideas about more suitable punishments that would fall short of demotion?

2- Do you think too much is asked of orcs wanting to become Nag'Ogar/Gosh'kar/Gul'thauk, and do you have any suggestions about how the tribe structure and training might be reformed accordingly?

Well...

To the first point, yes and no. The tribe has always had an an on-off relationship when it comes to being either overly 'family' orientated or more military based, we've drifted back and forth a fair bit over the years. To that end yes, but not always. Its very hard to pin point. Lashes are certainly one option, a kind of public humiliation or labouring of extra duty's could work too, of which refusal to undertake may cause much harsher punishment. Cleaning up after the wolves, cooking the tribes food at night, hunting our meals, any kind of extra 'simplistic' effort that doesnt make for much honour may prove adequate.

To the second, overall I like the direction Koz has in mind for the Nag'ogar in particular. Rather than lone/single warriors fighting for personal honour he's pushing the nag'ogar toward a 'team', giving it great emphasis on teamwork/unit based efforts rather than what loners can/can't do. But, unlike the gosh'kar (or gul'thauk, but me and most folks are unaware how thats run now) theres no step by step system to achieving the rank, Don't get me wrong I enjoy war trainings but some folks have been waiting upward of six months to become nag'ogar... so that answers your last point too, I do believe in some cases its quite difficult to attain a rank, especially for the Nag'ogar. But again, I don't know what Koz has in mind for the future. So we shall see. I do think regular events for each path, such as war training for the nag'ogar and their trainee's to build inter path bonds is good, but it often needs more reliable substance in the form of regular events/aims.

But as I see it, each of the 'senior' ranks (Gul'thauk/Gosh'kar/Nag'ogar) should have four standard'ish tasks to complete to achieve their rank, Not counting the respective Alphas of course. Standardisation is never a bad thing I think, and giving people clear objectives to strive toward is something I would like to see.

[Gridish]

To the second, overall I like the direction Koz has in mind for the Nag'ogar in particular. Rather than lone/single warriors fighting for personal honour he's pushing the nag'ogar toward a 'team', giving it great emphasis on teamwork/unit based efforts rather than what loners can/can't do. But, unlike the gosh'kar (or gul'thauk, but me and most folks are unaware how thats run now) theres no step by step system to achieving the rank, Don't get me wrong I enjoy war trainings but some folks have been waiting upward of six months to become nag'ogar... so that answers your last point too, I do believe in some cases its quite difficult to attain a rank, especially for the Nag'ogar. But again, I don't know what Koz has in mind for the future. So we shall see. I do think regular events for each path, such as war training for the nag'ogar and their trainee's to build inter path bonds is good, but it often needs more reliable substance in the form of regular events/aims.

But as I see it, each of the 'senior' ranks (Gul'thauk/Gosh'kar/Nag'ogar) should have four standard'ish tasks to complete to achieve their rank, Not counting the respective Alphas of course. Standardisation is never a bad thing I think, and giving people clear objectives to strive toward is something I would like to see.

As for some insight on the Nag'Ogar training. Let me start by saying I am not trying to dsirespect Grogona nor Kozgugore's ways in any way. Since my break from WoW, there has been some things going wrong in the section of Nag'Ogar training. We had agreed upon a training plan for future Nag'Ogars training before my departure but got lost along the road. Now that I've returned, I want to try out the initial plan we had with sed Nag'ogar training. With this comes more structure clarity and less the feeling of it taking "forever to progress". The  Nag'Ogar trainings won't be done in groups anymore as that is too much of a hastle OOCly to get very trainee in on the night of the training which ultimately leads to the training dragging out. I can tell you that the Nag'Ogar training will have five tasks, unless special circumstances call for more tasks for specific trainees.

As this is a test run, I will most likely be modifying the training as I go. Any constructive feedback is always welcome ofcourse. As for your concerns of the Nag'Ogar training leading to nowhere, I hope that with me returning to the Rrosh'tul position, there'll be more structure and signs of progression in the Nag'Ogar training. You can always contact me through PM on the forums or in-game if you have any questions on joining the Nag'Ogar training program or more on the changes of the Nag'Ogar training.

[Rashka]

So since in writing from my phone I'll try and make this rather short, let me start off with "does it take too long" Both yes and no. No if it's the first time you're going through it, and yes if it's the second(or third or forth, as it is atm due to a lot of changing orcs actually "training" the Nag'ogars)
In my case I defiantly lost motivation upon what happened to Rashka. I completely agree that what she did was wrong, and should not by any means be ignore, since it -was a really bad/stupid thing to do-, but to take something away a person had been working on for -months- so easily is really a punch to the face, and then furthermore saying that the person no longer is allowed to train as a Nag'ogar is just taking it a bit too far. Atleast in my opinion. Especially since the person handing out the punishment have had done something even worse.
It would defiantly had been better with several amount of lashes/other kind of punishment in publicly than demotion. Especially with an Orc like Rashka where honor is a big deal. It'd of been something to be even more ashamed off, in my opinion atleast.. I'm gonna stop ranting now cuz I'm not going to write a whole essay from my phone xD

[Therak]

As you brought it up yourself Rashka.
It was (to the best of my knowledge) not just one incident with Rashka, but several times she'd actually attacked other Red Blades, not to mention doing so -during- Kosh'harg. She had been given several chances to change her behaviour but did not do so. Eventually things does reach a certain point where a demotion is the 'last resort'.
I really doubt it's a permanent ban from training as Nag'Ogar, but rather one where until such a time as you have proven yourself beyond the specific actions that led to the eventual demotion she is barred from it. Once she's proven herself capable of acting as is expected as a Nag'Ogar then she can most likely begin such training again.

[Okiba]

As you brought it up yourself Rashka.
It was (to the best of my knowledge) not just one incident with Rashka, but several times she'd actually attacked other Red Blades, not to mention doing so -during- Kosh'harg. She had been given several chances to change her behaviour but did not do so. Eventually things does reach a certain point where a demotion is the 'last resort'.
I really doubt it's a permanent ban from training as Nag'Ogar, but rather one where until such a time as you have proven yourself beyond the specific actions that led to the eventual demotion she is barred from it. Once she's proven herself capable of acting as is expected as a Nag'Ogar then she can most likely begin such training again.

'prove yourself'.

"how"?

Is the inevitable question. we're forver hearing that sentance yet no clear instruction on how comes to the forefront.

[Rashka]

As you brought it up yourself Rashka.
It was (to the best of my knowledge) not just one incident with Rashka, but several times she'd actually attacked other Red Blades, not to mention doing so -during- Kosh'harg. She had been given several chances to change her behaviour but did not do so. Eventually things does reach a certain point where a demotion is the 'last resort'.
I really doubt it's a permanent ban from training as Nag'Ogar, but rather one where until such a time as you have proven yourself beyond the specific actions that led to the eventual demotion she is barred from it. Once she's proven herself capable of acting as is expected as a Nag'Ogar then she can most likely begin such training again.

Actually no. That was the first incident. As far as I remember then. Afterwards she did however slap Vanara. But that's everything. And yes Krogon. "Prove yourself" She was told that by Grogona after completing all her training too, and honestly... She had? Loads of times. Really.

[Sadok]

I think it's important to note that while this thread is about suggestions and feedback, it'd be preferable for all concerned to voice that in the form of constructive criticism rather than complaining about past treatment. We are receptive to things that have happened in the past, and we do want to make a change for the better rather than just defend past decisions.

Actually no. That was the first incident. As far as I remember then. Afterwards she did however slap Vanara. But that's everything. And yes Krogon. "Prove yourself" She was told that by Grogona after completing all her training too, and honestly... She had? Loads of times. Really.

I can certainly sympathise with the feeling of starting over again, and how that can be frustrating both ICly and OOCly. As Gridish noted in his post, the Nag'Ogar training was being done in a different way up until somewhat recently -- one that I think wasn't the best for actually equipping the trainee for the tools required of Nag'Ogar duties.

That said, training for a rank is ICly a privilege rather than a right, so just as good deeds should count in favor of promotion, any slip-ups should also be counted as stumbling blocks in the training -- it wouldn't be right, after all, to reward someone for any mistakes, just as it wouldn't be right to punish them for their successes. I can't and won't speak for Grogona's decisions, but she's no longer in charge of Nag'Ogar training, and Gridish does seem to want to do things in a different way.

It is my understanding that whatever ban was on Rashka's training has been lifted, and you're now retraining again with the new, improved Nag'Ogar formula. I do think there's more we can do to punish people without stripping them from training, so as ever, I'm receptive to any good ideas.

'prove yourself'.

"how"?

Is the inevitable question. we're forver hearing that sentance yet no clear instruction on how comes to the forefront.

I guess there's no formalised point at which an orc has "proven" himself, but it's as with anything a combination of time and behaviour. Your own heavy involvement in events and such usually does propel you above your peers in that regard.

There have been some cases when orcs have simply fallen through the cracks and a short period of "proving" themselves has been turned into a much longer process -- Trakmar's trial period of being reprieved from exile turning into a kind of indefinite purgatory was definitely one such example, and I personally wanted that sorted out ASAP once it was within my power.

If anyone does feel as though they've been forgotten about, or any period of 'proving themselves' has become unusually wrong, I'd encourage people to contact an officer preferably OOCly to speak about it -- we're usually receptive to such things, but we're not all-seeing and occasionally we do forget.

I would once again caution everyone involved in this thread to not get swept up in an antagonistic fervor, because this thread was posted with good intentions, and it does exist because OotRB isn't perfect in every way, and we won't pretend it is -- we're looking for any ways to improve the experience our guild offers, so I'd encourage people when posting to both consider problems and possible solutions. Thanks!

[Sadok]

Alright, we've had an OOC meeting about the feedback raised in regards to alternate punishments, and we've got a compromise measure, which I'm submitting for the likes of Rashka, Krogon and such to provide their opinions on:

Suspension (or Lapsing/Barring/insert suitable orcish name)

An orc who has trained once for a rank and been promoted is clearly competent enough to perform the duties the rank entails (be it rituals for Gosh'kar, pack-tactics for Nag'Ogar etc). Most demotions tend to occur due to discipline issues or miscellaneous factors, and retraining doesn't really address that issue -- it's more of a chore for all concerned, from the orc demoted to the orc having to fully retrain them.

As such, here's the example for the new system:
a) Nag'Ogar A refuses to follow a direct order (or some other offense);
b) Nag'Ogar A is suspended from their duties. They are still Nag'Ogar in the guild-roster rather than being demoted, but have none of the rights or responsibilities of their rank until the suspension is waived;
c) The suspension is waived whenever the orc has been deemed by their appropriate elder (in the case of Nag'Ogar A, a Rrosh-tul or the Chieftain) to have earned trust back by performing task(s) related to the offence in question -- in our example, Nag'Ogar A might be called upon to carry out an order similar to the one he initially refused;
d) Whenever the suspension is waived, Nag'Ogar A once again assumes the full duties of Nag'Ogar. No further retraining or rigmarole is required.

In short, it's an effective 'demotion' until the orc has repented of the specific offences that earned their suspension, but they do not have to go through the whole process of retraining and so once a rank is 'earned', it cannot be forever unearned.

Any thoughts on this as a more player-friendly alternative to "Nag'Ogar A has been demoted to Oathbound, and must prove himself before even beginning to retrain"? If there's positive feedback, we may introduce this system ICly as soon as a week or two from now.

[Okiba]

Alright, we've had an OOC meeting about the feedback raised in regards to alternate punishments, and we've got a compromise measure, which I'm submitting for the likes of Rashka, Krogon and such to provide their opinions on:

Suspension (or Lapsing/Barring/insert suitable orcish name)

An orc who has trained once for a rank and been promoted is clearly competent enough to perform the duties the rank entails (be it rituals for Gosh'kar, pack-tactics for Nag'Ogar etc). Most demotions tend to occur due to discipline issues or miscellaneous factors, and retraining doesn't really address that issue -- it's more of a chore for all concerned, from the orc demoted to the orc having to fully retrain them.

As such, here's the example for the new system:
a) Nag'Ogar A refuses to follow a direct order (or some other offense);
b) Nag'Ogar A is suspended from their duties. They are still Nag'Ogar in the guild-roster rather than being demoted, but have none of the rights or responsibilities of their rank until the suspension is waived;
c) The suspension is waived whenever the orc has been deemed by their appropriate elder (in the case of Nag'Ogar A, a Rrosh-tul or the Chieftain) to have earned trust back by performing task(s) related to the offence in question -- in our example, Nag'Ogar A might be called upon to carry out an order similar to the one he initially refused;
d) Whenever the suspension is waived, Nag'Ogar A once again assumes the full duties of Nag'Ogar. No further retraining or rigmarole is required.

In short, it's an effective 'demotion' until the orc has repented of the specific offences that earned their suspension, but they do not have to go through the whole process of retraining and so once a rank is 'earned', it cannot be forever unearned.

Any thoughts on this as a more player-friendly alternative to "Nag'Ogar A has been demoted to Oathbound, and must prove himself before even beginning to retrain"? If there's positive feedback, we may introduce this system ICly as soon as a week or two from now.

I quite like that, very simple and likely effective. Though I'd not call it a 'suspension' :p we're not good cops gone bad! 

perhaps a "shaming" or some made up orcish word, but overall I like the idea.

[Regorn]

perhaps a "shaming" or some made up orcish word, but overall I like the idea.

hmmm...

Mak'gora = Duel of honor
Mak'Rogahn = Duel of Will

So 'gora' would mean honor.

Lak'tuk = suffering

Gora Lak'tuk = Honor Suffering? (Or Lak'tuk Gora, as with Orcish you seem to be able to place two words before or after)
Gora'tuk? Gora'lak?

Or just smash it together with some untranslated Orcish line to make it sound good.
Gul'gora, Revash'gora, Gesh'gora etc. etc.

Or, pick something entirely different
Kagh = run, Kagh'gora = Honors run (away).
gol = home?, gol'gora = Honors home (bring your honor back home)
Trk'hsk = bloodshead in battle, Trk'gora = bloodshead honor? (killed your honor)

this happen when I get bored on the evenings