Orcs of the Red Blade

The question is simple. As an orcish tribe one could think we're highly disciplined and organized. The truth seems to be of the opposite. This post is not made to force anyone to play their characters differently or to point a finger at anybody but to me every normal orc's supposed to have a strong sense of discipline and honour. It is reasonable to assume that orcs are born and raised into harder discipline than most of us humans are.

So! To be a part of an orcish tribe is something you cannot find in our world and that is the main reason I would like the experience be as real as possible. To me discipline, respect and honour play a big part of the tribe's everyday life.

As to the discipline, I wouldn't mind being bullied around by my superiors (ICly that is) if they decide to do it. What I would -really- like to see is that the orders of the superiors being followed to the point and those who deliberately disobey continuously punished somehow. It would add greatly to the feeling of being a part of a tribe.

Once more, this poll is not for direct actions but to show what do the majority of the guild think about the subject.

Opinions are welcome.

Thank you for reading the sloppy handwrite of Drakkiboi the Fireman.

Total agree with you on this.

As made -very- clear by me yesterday, as I was trying to introduce a string of events I have planned, and was blatantly told off...

I agree with Drak on this, and answered yes.

And correct, these events will most likely not happen now.

Even though I am not in the guild anymore, I think this is a wonderfull topic, so actually going to reply.

Quote from: Drakash on April 21, 2008, 07:17:59 PMAs to the discipline, I wouldn't mind being bullied around by my superiors (ICly that is) if they decide to do it. What I would -really- like to see is that the orders of the superiors being followed to the point and those who deliberately disobey continuously punished somehow. It would add greatly to the feeling of being a part of a tribe.

I was present, on an alt, at the warcouncil, and was surprised to see that all the Orcs where really doing was fighting amongst each other. Why it is certainly very cool to RP a social hierarchy in the Tribe, rank doesn't give you the right to just bully others, actually rank really shouldn't give you any rights what so ever. It should give you more responsibility. Its a sign of those that make things happen, and do a lot for the Tribe and those in it. Otherwise it just becomes an excuse to pretend to be more then others.

Yes there should be discpline, but also embrace the things that happen. I hear people saying that they want more WPvP and more events, yet Lorath was critized by the majority of the present Orcs. Perhaps it wasn't exactly how the Tribe envisions such an event, but at least it is somebody stepping up and trying to make things happen.

What is more important? The race and rank of the person hosting an event? Or the event itself?

Great post Drakash! ;D

Discipline is a large part of orcish life. From the peons getting booteranged to the grunts being kept in line.
Discipline could work well I think. It was part of the problem yesterday for some at the start of the meeting. The idea that an Oathbound was addressing those of higher standing was picked up on by main.
At the moment on the whole it seems to be Kozgugore and then everyone else (normally whoever shouts the loudest).

That's a very sensible post and one that I agree whole-heartedly with. I wasn't present during most of yesterdays meeting, which was a slip-up, but from what I understood of it, this was precisely the thing Tirnak was asking for.

Suffice to say, I vote yes.

Quote from: Dogar on April 21, 2008, 09:51:58 PM

Quote from: Drakash on April 21, 2008, 07:17:59 PMAs to the discipline, I wouldn't mind being bullied around by my superiors (ICly that is) if they decide to do it. What I would -really- like to see is that the orders of the superiors being followed to the point and those who deliberately disobey continuously punished somehow. It would add greatly to the feeling of being a part of a tribe.

Why it is certainly very cool to RP a social hierarchy in the Tribe, rank doesn't give you the right to just bully others, actually rank really shouldn't give you any rights what so ever. It should give you more responsibility. Its a sign of those that make things happen, and do a lot for the Tribe and those in it. Otherwise it just becomes an excuse to pretend to be more then others.

Ayyes, don't know if I'm beating the beaten here, but I'd like to make one thing clear for me there. Just as the ranks give responsibility and are a sign of an orc doing something, the lower ranked members should be looking up at them superiors, at least that's what how I see it. It would be a nice show of respect after all the work the individual has given to the tribe.

Quote from: Dogar on April 21, 2008, 09:51:58 PM
What is more important? The race and rank of the person hosting an event? Or the event itself?

Of course if the orcs don't like an elf, I can understand it, but it should be to the players to respect and honour those who try to do something to enforce the RP and Wpvp on this server. And I personally am up to any event I can come, even if Drakash disliked the person arranging it (IC of course) and would do my best to not to ruin the whole show because of my own petty reasons.

Quote from: Dogar on April 21, 2008, 09:51:58 PM
Great post Drakash! ;D

I humbly bow before you. <3

Quote from: Morgri on April 21, 2008, 10:21:48 PM
The idea that an Oathbound was addressing those of higher standing was picked up on by main.
At the moment on the whole it seems to be Kozgugore and then everyone else (normally whoever shouts the loudest).

There should be a change to this, in my opinion. First thing is that Tirnak was 'authorized' to do that. Secondly you could go back to Dogar's imbacool saying I'm going to quote here again "What is more important? The race and rank of the person hosting an event? Or the event itself?".

But I agree that this is a hard subject.

-Drakkiboi

P.S. Oh and sorry Dogar if I picked at things you already stated, just wanted to clear my head.

Grockh was there, saw it all, and sure, was amazed by dat conflict in the Tribe.
Situation was clear, and i think, rank of Tirnak wat not so important because she was Koz' replacement for dat time. So, dishonor to her was dishonor to Koz.
Thats made Grocks say dat tribe looked really scattered when Koz is not near somewhere.
Maybe dat was not only about discipline, but also respecting each other.


(ooc):
RP was great :)
Voted yes. Totally agree.

Yes, the tribe needs more discipline. For the orc tribal feeling.
I think orcs are naturally loudmouthed and voilent, that's why they need to be kept on a tight leash. Most of the orcs will never be the quiet disciplined warriors. If one have those expectations there will be trouble  :)

I agree that it's important in this game to give the player a chance.
If one has worked on an event for several days, buying material maybe, talking to a lot of people and so on... it's not that fun to be overrun by a group of orcs that argue about this and that and not paying attention one bit. I've been there... and it made me wanna just erase the whole game from my computer ;D

More discipline! Bring back the big stick! We'z orks, not flappies!

Sie müssen better disziplin haben!

Sorry for the German, couldn't resist myself  ::) ::)

There were times when i was sayin about the discipline and the ranks.
This is the result of letting it be how it was.

Great thread Drakash. I agree about the discipline. But discipline must be established and not RPed. I agree with Drakash there should be punishment for those who disobey or lack discipline, but if someone decided to RP an undisciplined orc that is his character, and it is the place of the chief or other high ranking officers to punish him. About the meeting, I must say I enjoyed it and so did other orcs and I do not know why RP should always be so linear, straightforward, sometimes things like that should happen to stir things up a bit. In that way I think that the relationships between the tribesorc become richer, deeper and more complex. As for the war council I think that splitting it into two parts gave it some dynamics and life, we all want WPVP of course but one should not sacrifice his RP and char if he finds the idea stupid ICly.

And remember we are a tribe of orcs that come from different backgrounds and not a military organization.

There have been comments getting around the point that if we have Discipline and ranks taken strong does that mean that only senior members can run events. Lore-wise it was not likely that the lesser members of a clan would be in such a place but this is a game as we must change things slightly to fit in with the enjoyment of all.
The easiest way of doing this would be say, if an Oathbound wanted to run an event they go to Kozgugore IC and ask permission to. If granted then during the event even with the low status of the host those higher up in the scheme of the tribe back up the other to keep order. The problem hit sunday when a few missed the message from Koz in guild chat that Tirnak had been sent by him in his place. This was continued with rage from the Nag Ogar who felt take down to by an Oathbound. It got into a mess and when Koz arrived order was restored some what after a lot of arguing.
It would have been so much easier of Tirnak was backed up by a Nag Ogar to keep the rest of us in line than just say Koz has sent me listen to me now. Then if some orc should be RPed as a rebel there is someone there with the power to put them (by force if needs be) in place. This could be planned in officer chat then be more of a shock to those who dare question the will of the chieftain. :)

Of course it's all just RP, and every orc is different in his way of thinking and behaviour. Though as Drakash said, every orc is (usually) born and raised with some sense of honour and discipline. It's like Dutch with cheese. French with mime players. English with bacon and eggs. Americans and stupidity. It might fall to the tribe to instruct the orcs in these things, but it should be something they are supposed to have some kind of grip on themselves in advance.

That said, obedience and discipline has been an issue for quite some time in the tribe. And not just this tribe, but plenty of other guilds I used to be in myself before. Being self-reliant and perhaps somewhat egocentric is part of human (and who knows orcish) nature, just to put it in polite words. The orc in charge can tell you how to behave and how not to behave, but no one should be told how to play if it goes against the way they intend to RP their character. Still, there should always be some kind of border as to how far you and your character will want to take it.

Take Lanii for example. I had to demote her to New Blood and remove her of her tabard for the second (perhaps third) time. Her character is nothing but trouble but as much as I would like to punish this behaviour IC, I have to restrict myself OOC because I don't intend on spoiling anyone's fun by telling them how to play or RP. If I really wanted to act IC, I would've exiled her from the tribe right away. But as always, IC intentions don't always go well with OOC intentions.

Another example is the War Council. Every orc had his own opinion on the matter and responded to Lorath in their own fashion. Which was fine by me, as long as it doesn't seem too disrespectful. As said before in this thread, he may be a stinking, flower picking, holy-kissing elf, his IC rank is that of the leader of the Horde Watch, and even orcs should show him some degree of respect (of course the plain reckless/dumb ones excluded. Though once again, those people themselves are to know the limits). I suppose even those who were against the attack were up for some WPvP, but they indeed have a reason to act according to their character. Just because they object to the intention doesn't mean they don't want to join in, but they'll want to properly RP it out so their character has a reason to go along as well, which is perfectly fine by me. In fact, I'd say the War Council ended pretty nicely since we (or most anyway) could agree and offer our blades after some consideration.

Orcs with personalities are fine. But it's up to you and your character to know the limits. Yes, you could utterly insults Koz or whoever he sent in his stead, but you should know what the consequenses are, should an officer or whatnot find out and deal with it accordingly. I'm reluctant to completely kick orcs for disobedience (I gave Lanii three chances already), but I already had to kick orcs before because they gave me no other choice, yet they came complaining at me OOC afterwards. The same counts for discipline. You can disobey if it's what your character would do, but know that you're no heroic one-man army farting lightning and breathing fire. Unless you are, your orc should have a reason to obey to some extent. And if that isn't enough, surely your sense of duty and honour to the tribe should be.

That said, I'll admit I could've been more clear in stating Tirnak would take my place for a few minutes while I was still yapping with the elves about some upcoming war, as I didn't expect it to take that long myself. It was good warning for me both IC and OOC though. I take it everyone did act according to his own character and RPed it out in his own way, which I can't object to. Though after all the things I've been trying to make clear IC, I was hoping more people would've already gotten the picture. Still, I see no harm done.

Couldn't say it better than koz did :)
And sadly enough koz is right about ooc having a huge influence on ic matters. You might say we watch a movie..But even some parts of movies we don't like.. But now we have the 'power' to change the bad part to more of our likings.

Also keep in mind that it's almost impossible to roleplay something that is the complete opposite of you.
My view of characters is that you just pick up a part of you and develop around that.
In other words, a piece of you but then in orc form is living in that game. And it can happen you feel bad, insulted or even hurd by something ooc'ly that has happened ic'ly.

Thing is, almost all my characters are quiet when there is a meeting or whatever gathering/speech. Especially when there is a fight, my characters are most of the times just in the background not doing something stupid.
This is again, that irl I'm very quiet and some even say, Neutral. I always think what will happen if I did something. So I can guess what bad stuff could happen if I did/said something. I don't know how to act 'rudely/more open' in meetings/fights because I don't know it ooc'ly and against me.

But as koz said, keep in mind it's a game and just roleplay. But don't think the world is yours. Stuff can happen..But we also have to swallow stuff up irl we don't like.. So if something bad happens ic'ly..Well endure it and stop blaming the others oocl'y.. Without a good reason of course ^^

hm, as an outsider I should really not post here... but what the heck lets go!
As said before, discipline and honor is the two  pillars which the whole orcish society rests upon. In my new guild we are a legion, which makes it alot more disciplined then a tribe, but the things are almost the same. Don't talk bad stuff to supperiors etc, /salute them when you meet them on the street and stuff like that. think hollywood Drill sarge.

And since I wasn't at the meeting I can't speak about it, but if an orc says she/he is sent as Koz's replacement then the rest should accept it. Now I would have loved to have a young char as elder in this Tribe. You unruly orcs would get spanked!

Oh and Koz, If someone is making you wanna kick him/her IC, then that is what should happen. Don't know the case of Lanii, but if someone brakes the rules or is just behaving bad, kick him/her. After several warnings ofc.

Uglûhk out! Soon my kin will join you, I promise!   

Me likes it this way.  ;D No need for more order
And Koz, it was second time, I am not that bad to.. Yet.. Mwhahaha

Thinking about yesterday's tournament, an' it was pretty well disciplined. Except for one instance. when I voiced my doubts to Koz in front of those there. If I'd been chieftain I'd beaten the orc doubting me. Or maybe ordered the Varag Gor to do it. I got away with it too easy. Just a word after it all from Koz, and my appoligies. I admitt I didn't only do it becouse of my disgust of Warlocks but also to tesst the discipline. Next time Koz, I  hope I get freakin' flogged.

Good thing you bring it to attention. Though keep in mind I had my reasons to react like that.

First of all, what makes you think Koz likes all the warlocks? He didn't totally agree with Krakun but he thinks a lot of the warlocks are cowards and weaklings as well. Besides that, I tend to avoid as many emote fights as possible. Yes, I hate them with a passion and even though I got a booterang up my sleeve doesn't mean I'll have to use it in every single oppertunity. Beating some sense into an orc may have been normal during the first two wars, when the orcs were still savage brutes and had nothing on their minds but war, but the present day orcs are not like them, nor your average Warhammer orcs. If something gets beaten, it's usually a peon. I'm yet to see a grunt getting punished for something through pain.

Besides that, I simply didn't have the time. Everyone was asking and talking away so it's hard keeping track of everything at the same time when you still have another two things to discuss at the same meeting as well.

Of course you had your reasons, and of course they are right. Emote-fighting is worse then OOCtard lurking in Orgrimmar. But for the Savage thingie, I still think that it would fit. I sometimes feel that we are to soft, if you know what I mean. Very like ourselfs in present day. And I don't think orcs are like that. But I do see your points.

And if your no super-human you should have trouble remembering all that was said at that meeting :P Feels really good to be back in the Tribe though. Missed it more then I realised  :-*

Yes I agree have become too soft in more ways then one.
Orcs require discipline and grow stronger with it,
We are not a mam-de pamdy bunch of flower pickers.
WE ARE ORCS.
Savage warriors who take no sh~@ from any body else.


((No comment about Sundays meet was not there)).

i bonked You on the head though, without warning that is *peers at Krakun*

It hurts *bandages a little jack on his head*

As you now can see the results are quite clear. I'll start abusing my rank right now. *cackle*

do so. but remember to give us grunts an Ale-break from time to time